Tepper expanding the ring of honor

[TheRed]

48 minutes ago, RIAnBOW said:

If you want to read some of my past posts I think it will be perfectly clear "softening" anything related to Jerry isn't in my playbook. 

If the Ring of Honor's purpose is to memorialize men have had significant impact on the Panthers, and made major contributions to the goals of the franchise, Richardson should be in it.  Nobody has been more instrumental than him.

In the Kraft thread I was surprised how many posters rationalized all Richardson's cash payouts and NDA's as simply a cost of doing business for billionaires (I took the other side of this argument and didn't have any company).  If that's how fans truly feel seems Richardson should be a lock for The Ring.

Do you feel he should be excluded because of all the sexual harassment related cash payouts and NDA's?

Nobody that I've seen is actually denying Jerry Richardson the fact that he was instrumental in the Carolinas getting an NFL team.

But let's just put it all out there. Yes he brought us a team, but he is also now a billionaire for his troubles, so let's put the sad violins away. Jerry is and was a businessman first and foremost. He saw an opportunity to make money hand over fist if his gamble paid off, and that is exactly what he did. If you want to give him credit for that, so be it.

As far as the ring of "honor" goes in general, I think it's all bullshit in a much broader context anyway as the NFL has made it more and more clear how much of a mirage things like that actually are. Men like Sam Mills are few and far between these days. But that's probably for another discussion.

[TheRed]

7 minutes ago, RIAnBOW said:

He and his partners did well financially, no doubt (but there's no evidence he's a billionaire)

https://www.therichest.com/celebnetworth/celebrity-business/men/jerry-richardson-net-worth/

[TheRed]

22 minutes ago, RIAnBOW said:

Figured that would be the link you would cite.  That site is useless, they do no work and simply assume Richardson owned 100% of the team (when in fact he only owned 30.29% himself).

Richardson has never appeared in the Forbes list of billionaires.  Here's the link to a 2017 Charlotte Biz Journal article listing all the billionaires in NC, they cite Forbes as a source....Richardson is not on the list, not does he appear on the 2018 or 2019 lists: 

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2017/03/21/this-is-the-richest-person-in-north-carolina-says.html

The richest people in North Carolina:

• No. 137: Jim Goodnight, SAS, $9.4 billion
• No. 367: John Sall, SAS, $4.5 billion
• No. 501: Clemmie Spangler Jr., former UNC president, $3.7 billion
• No. 1,597: Michael Jordan, Charlotte Hornets
• No. 1,940: O. Bruton Smith, NASCAR, $1 billion

Already covered this ground in the Kraft thread, if you want to learn about it you can do so here: 

https://www.carolinahuddle.com/boards/topic/155738-kraft-actually-broke-the-law-and-has-been-arrested-jr-wasn’t/?page=22&tab=comments#comment-4820162

Lot's of misconceptions out there as it relates to the finances of the Panthers and the Bobcats/Hornets.

What are we arguing about? The overall point I was making pertained to the investment he made versus the final value of the team when it was sold. JR is in the history books as bringing a team here, and he has made immense profits along the way.

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2018/06/26/carolina-panthers-solo-ownership-shows.html

Through much of that time, beginning in the late-1980s, sports marketing consultant Muhleman guesstimated the going rate for a new team would be around $75 million.

In 1993, the NFL awarded Richardson and Charlotte the expansion franchise that became the Carolina Panthers. And, as the process wound to a close that year with owners voting on expansion at a meeting in Chicago, the price of admission kept rising. It eventually reached $200 million after factoring in two years without a share of national TV revenue.

200 million dollars flipped for 2.275 billion. No Richardson didn't pocket every dime of that as there were obviously a few other investors, but he's sitting pretty damn comfy thanks to the fans around the Carolinas over the span of two decades. Where things have ultimately ended up with his reputation and the ramifications that followed his indiscretions are entirely on him. There is no need to "honor" him as well. Let's leave it at that, and open a new chapter.

[PhillyB]

On 3/26/2019 at 1:12 PM, Carl Spackler said:

I’m interested in the Ring of Dishonor. Who goes there?

JR, Carruth, 89 (he can go in both), the two cheerleaders who made it in a Tampa bathroom, Seifert, Matt Kalil, Remmers, KB, every PSL owner who knowingly sells their tickets to opposing fans, who else?

Igo?

whoever that app state QB was

[Khyber53]

On 3/26/2019 at 10:45 AM, Mr. Scot said:

See, here's where you have to start talking criteria...

Wanna compare the athleticism of Sam Mills and Luke Kuechly? Uuuhhh...no. But Sam Mills was exceptional for other reasons, and anybody who would question why the Panthers hold him in such high regard probably deserves a kick in the nuts.

Ask who's the better linebacker between the two of them, though? That's a valid discussion.

So is being an elite level player enough, or so you need to have something more?

There has to be something more, something of incredible importance to the team's history. And you don't have to be HoF Elite to deserve it.

Jake Delhomme deserves it. He got us to our first Superb Owl as much, or more, than anyone else. He was NOT an elite player, but he caught magic that season and not just played his heart out, but led that team. He was the every day guy that held on and got the shot at glory and man, did he take it. He deserves that spot of honor.

Jordan Gross, a mainstay at LT forever here. Not HoF elite, but he was everything you could ask for as a Panther.

Steve Smith, Sr. No doubt. Smitty will be a HoF'er and he set the bar for attitude on this team. We never should have sent him packing.

Julius Peppers. The guy should have a statue out in front of Canton. No question about the ring of honor for him.

Ryan Kalil. Yeah, no doubt ring of honor.

There are others, too, we have more history than you'd think.

[MechaZain]

Iconic Panthers: Smith, Peppers, Cam, Luke.

Hometown heroes: Mills, Davis, R.Kalil, Gross, Muhammad, CMC someday?

Fan favorites: Delhomme, Kasay

 

I think the Ring of Honor should be kept to that top tier for the most part. Those are the elite players who are/were the face of the Carolina Panthers in minds of NFL fans everywhere. Mills is a fine exception for what he means to this team, and I think TD is right on the bubble and the argument can be made for him. Past that, you are getting into just "great Carolina Panthers" territory and we're gonna have a lot of people in there eventually if that's the bar.  As it's been pointed out we're still a young team.

[Mr. Scot]

3 hours ago, RIAnBOW said:

We also agree that Richardson put business first, winning was way on down in the back of the line there somewhere.

I've actually never agreed with this notion.

You make more money by winning, so if your primary goal is money you should be going all in.

It was never that Richardson didn't care about winning. The problem was something else, and I divide it into two parts.

He had no clue how to win

I'm sure Johnny Manziel wants to be a great football player, but he hasn't got a clue how to make that happen. Likewise, I believe Jerry Richardson truly did want to be the owner of a successful franchise look up, but he was clueless about how to do so. And some of that probably comes from part two...

He prioritized loyalty over competence

This is basically an ego thing. Some "leaders" just can't handle being told they're doing something wrong even when the results of their "leadership" are total crap. Such people surround themselves with yes men and ass kissers rather than anyone who might disagree with them.

[Khyber53]

2 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

I've actually never agreed with this notion.

You make more money by winning, so if your primary goal is money you should be going all in.

It was never that Richardson didn't care about winning. The problem was something else, and I divide it into two parts.

He had no clue how to win

I'm sure Johnny Manziel wants to be a great football player, but he hasn't got a clue how to make that happen. Likewise, I believe Jerry Richardson truly did want to be the owner of a successful franchise look up, but he was clueless about how to do so. And some of that probably comes from part two...

He prioritized loyalty over competence

This is basically an ego thing. Some "leaders" just can't handle being told they're doing something wrong even when the results of their "leadership" are total crap. Such people surround themselves with yes men and ass kissers rather than anyone who might disagree with them.

In Jerry Richardson's defense, he needs to be held in comparison for "winningness" against his contemporaries in newly founded teams. Of the Jacksonville Jaguars, Houston Texans and Cleveland Browns that came into being in the same decade, Richardson built the winningest team and the only one that has even been to a Superb Owl.

It's not fair to compare him to the Rooneys and Maras of the league. Even the storied Patriots floundered for decades before ol' Bill B replaced ol' Bill P and brought them respectability (unless you really count that SB appearance vs. the Bears). Let's not even talk about the long-term struggles of the Saints, Falcons and Bucs. 

Yeah, actually Richardson did put together one of the best young organizations in the NFL. Saying otherwise is just showing a lack of scope and perspective. I'm not defending the man's personal ethics (and won't), but the organization was built much faster and better than most. The thing is, it is mighty hard to build an effective, winning organization in the NFL, few people do it and there just aren't many people in this world who can come to that table with an experience-filled resume` in hand. 

You may have your own standards and means of judgement, but taken in the macro, rather than the micro, Richardson built a quality foundation, or at least better than most others in the same situation have. 

He was a dirty old man, though, so there's always that to throw out there. Everyone, myself included, is willing to hock a loogey at that.

[Mr. Scot]

18 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

In Jerry Richardson's defense, he needs to be held in comparison for "winningness" against his contemporaries in newly founded teams. Of the Jacksonville Jaguars, Houston Texans and Cleveland Browns that came into being in the same decade, Richardson built the winningest team and the only one that has even been to a Superb Owl.

It's not fair to compare him to the Rooneys and Maras of the league. Even the storied Patriots floundered for decades before ol' Bill B replaced ol' Bill P and brought them respectability (unless you really count that SB appearance vs. the Bears). Let's not even talk about the long-term struggles of the Saints, Falcons and Bucs. 

Yeah, actually Richardson did put together one of the best young organizations in the NFL. Saying otherwise is just showing a lack of scope and perspective. I'm not defending the man's personal ethics (and won't), but the organization was built much faster and better than most. The thing is, it is mighty hard to build an effective, winning organization in the NFL, few people do it and there just aren't many people in this world who can come to that table with an experience-filled resume` in hand. 

You may have your own standards and means of judgement, but taken in the macro, rather than the micro, Richardson built a quality foundation, or at least better than most others in the same situation have. 

He was a dirty old man, though, so there's always that to throw out there. Everyone, myself included, is willing to hock a loogey at that.

Well, let's be real. Part of the reason you can't compare him to other team owners is because the Panthers and Jaguars got advantages that no other expansion team had ever been given.

When other owners saw both teams make the conference championships in only their second year of existence, they were pretty pissed.

[NanuqoftheNorth]

8 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Well, let's be real. Part of the reason you can't compare him to other team owners is because the Panthers and Jaguars got advantages that no other expansion team had ever been given.

When other owners saw both teams make the conference championships in only their second year of existence, they were pretty pissed.

Yeah!  That was AWESOME!

Having said that, both teams likely had their best management in those early years.

It was all downhill from there.

[Khyber53]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Well, let's be real. Part of the reason you can't compare him to other team owners is because the Panthers and Jaguars got advantages that no other expansion team had ever been given.

When other owners saw both teams make the conference championships in only their second year of existence, they were pretty pissed.

And since then, there's just been the sound of crickets in Jacksonville until 2017. Also, Houston and Cleveland were given pretty much the same set of "advantages" to get them up to competitive levels speedily. 

Like I said, get mad at Richardson the man all you want, but to say he couldn't build an organization is just wrong. It also craps all over the hard work many other people have put in over the last two and a half decades. 

[NanuqoftheNorth]

7 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

And since then, there's just been the sound of crickets in Jacksonville until 2017. Also, Houston and Cleveland were given pretty much the same set of "advantages" to get them up to competitive levels speedily. 

Like I said, get mad at Richardson the man all you want, but to say he couldn't build an organization is just wrong. It also craps all over the hard work many other people have put in over the last two and a half decades. 

One of the big advantages of being a new team is, there is no legacy of bad decisions to overcome.

Once you are an established team, bad decisions are likely to haunt you for years.

[NanuqoftheNorth]

Just now, RIAnBOW said:

Which makes the track record the Patriots have established even more impressive!

Kraft and Richardson took over their teams within 1 year of each other. 

In that time-frame (24 years) the Patriots have won 6 Super Bowls and appeared in 10.  In that same time-frame the Panthers only have 7 winning seasons.

Kraft inherited a Super Fund site...Richardson received a pristine greenfield site.

This is what happens when your organization puts more importance on establishing long term friendships with coaches and players rather than holding people accountable and getting rid of them before they become a liablity to the team.

In case some of you haven't noticed Bill Belichick doesn't do warm and fuzzy very well.

Perform up to standards or clear out your locker.

[Gazi]

Kevin Greene, Wesley Walls gave us instant credibility when it was most needed. Next gen of Kasey, Pep, Hoover, Smitty, Dellhome should be a lock. Future members TD, Olsen, Kalil for sure