Would You Rather...?

[SetfreexX]

As Free Agency is likely at an end for us, the focus is likely on the draft at this point for many fans, and perhaps even the team. True we could make cap space for signings with a (Torrey Smith) cut, but of the available FA's who do you really want at the same cost, or split across a couple of signings. With that being the case my personal focus in on the first pick....

So my question is would you rather...

• Take the best pass rush prospect & pair them with our current legitimate pass rushers (Addison / Irvin / Short / Rookie)
• Take the best available offensive lineman available and shore up ALL 5 of the positions and keep Cam protected at all costs (Moton / Rookie / Paradis / Turner / Williams)

When you look at edge rushers all we have under contract after this season is Haynes who is an under-sized DE, and as it stands sub package rusher, or future OLB in the 3-4 sets

As far as the offensive line goes, Moton, Larsen, Paradis, Turner are all at least under contract through next season if memory serves. 

[Daddy_Uncle]

I know everyone keeps talking about pass rushers, but I have been saying since before the offseason started that our #1 priority has to be making the offensive line the best it can be and actually start protecting Cam. He has been beat up his entire career and won't last many more years at that rate. Get a good young offensive line and give Cam time to make accurate passes or scramble if need be. Also open up holes for CMC. Offensive line is the most important position group on a football team and our goal should be to have a top 5 line every year. and quit settling and throwing scrubs out there

[SetfreexX]

My answer right now is, I'm personally torn on this, I think if we go the hybrid route, we could add some edge defenders in the 2nd and 3rd round and still come away in good shape given what we already have invested. I think I'd like to see us with a good / potentially great offensive line first. 

You need defense in the playoffs, but you need an offense to get you there, I'd like to see us field the best offense possible, protect Cam, create consistent running lanes, and let our receivers / tight ends have time to do even more work. 

Let Rivera's calling card as a top defensive mind do a little bit more with ''less'' if you could even call it that by taking edge / pass rushers after the first. 

That's where my head is right now...at least. 

[Icege]

Ugh... this is a legitimately tough question.

On paper, the OL is more ready to go this season. However, DWill is on a one year deal and we're likely going to only want to have to pay for one veteran OT. Moton will likely be that guy, and he has only two more seasons left on his rookie deal. Turner is a rock, and Paradis we have for the next 3 years. If Paradis checks out, then we've got ourselves our high dollar value sunk into LT, C, and RG which is fine to me. Get a veteran on a team-friendly deal and a rookie to shore everything up for the long term (oh... and of course find a back-up swing lineman).

DL we're looking at Addison and Irvin being free agents next season (Addison might have one more... can't recall). Haynes is an unknown commodity. Cox Jr has continued to flash and develop, so at the very least we've got a rotational depth piece there. Obada has developed as well, but how much have they and how much longer do they need? Over at DT there is question marks surrounding how Poe and Short will perform after a disappointing showing last season. Butler is a bust. Kyle Love is likely gone in free agency. So on the DL, our starters with the exception of Short I believe are not signed thru 2020 - 2021. Then there is just a bunch of question marks.

Having to type all of that out, I started to think DL just because there needs to be SOMETHING there. But then... with the OL as close to completion as it is, getting it completely set up and making it so that next year only one OT will be the question mark (unless we take a guy that starts at LG and then kicks out to OT their sophomore year (HI MAX SCHARPING HOW ARE YOU DOING IN THE THIRD ROUND?)).

Ok, ok... I think I've figured it out.

OL.

My reasoning being that it would be the most impactful and I think that the DL is a multi-year rebuild that one player is not going to change.

 

Oh wait, I'm dumb as poo. You said first round pick. Derp. For some reason I thought it was a "You get one move to upgrade... A or B"

Well ignore everything I just said. PASS RUSH PLS!

[Daddy_Uncle]

It's not every year you are in the position to get a stud LT that can be a perennial pro bowler. No matter where you pick in the first round you can get a good pass rusher. Also pass rushers are much easier to come by than premier left tackles

[LinvilleGorge]

Based on the strengths of this draft class, pass rusher all day long. I'd feel differently if this was a great OL draft with meh pass rushers/DL. I think anytime a team tries to force the draft they're setting themselves up for mistakes. Take the low hanging fruit. We badly need pass rushers and DL. This is considered one of the strongest pass rusher/DL draft classes ever. Finding quality starting interior OL is common in the mid-rounds. The majority of starting NFL interior OL were probably drafted in the mid-rounds. This is not the case for quality pass rushers. They're like QBs and OTs. The majority of them are drafted in the 1st. I do think we should be looking hard at OTs, but don't overthink this and try to get cute. Go get those pass rushers and DL.

 

[LinvilleGorge]

1 minute ago, stbugs said:

Please tell me which LT at 16 can be a perennial pro-bowler. Those get drafted top 5. Look at last year. Chubb was the only pass rusher in the ball park and he was never coming close to 16.

This is the year when an elite pash rusher could be pushed down to 16. There are no elite LTs, if there were they’d be gone way before 16. Like Chubb last year there’d be no competition.

The funny thing is that a LT doesn’t make our OL that much better if Daryl is healthy. Our biggest hole on the OL is LG and you don’t need pick 16 to improve that. 

Despite my above post, I've become a bit leery of supposedly elite NFL OT prospects. The bust rate of those type of guys seems like it's been sky high in recent years.

[Sub Zero]

The major point in this is we have 1 DE/edge rusher under contract after this season.. Wow I forgot about that...Now I think we need to draft 2 Edge rusher and interiors DLINEMEN in this draft...

[LinvilleGorge]

13 minutes ago, Sub Zero said:

The major point in this is we have 1 DE/edge rusher under contract after this season.. Wow I forgot about that...Now I think we need to draft 2 Edge rusher and interiors DLINEMEN in this draft...

And zero proven ones.

I've been saying all off season that I want a pass rusher and a DL with two of our four picks in the first three rounds. I wouldn't be upset in the least if we took two pass rushers and a DL with those picks. We BADLY need pass rushers and DL. The class is stacked at those positions. Go get them.

[SetfreexX]

All of the above is why I'm torn, so many moving pieces, if these guys are there at the pick,

OT-

Williams / Risner / Taylor / Dillard

Edge-

Ferrell / Burns / Sweat / Gary

When you look at some of teams that won the SB the last three years, all of them had really good offensive lines, (NE, PHI, NE) when you look at NE no one one really scares you at pass rushers save a Trey Flowers, I think we could scheme pressure, I think it's the main reason we are now looking at a hybrid defense overall to allow more flexibility vs being so archaic in the believe of getting there with the front four. The NFL in it's current state just doesn't lend itself to that thinking. 

This is coming from a guy that is all about pass rush, i just think solving the offensive line is ''key'' I think we'd be ok with a group of...

Moton / GVR / Paradis / Turner / WIlliams,

But if we can add a top OL prospect and move the rookie to G for a season, or even Williams it's hard to argue with that, because if we can score consistently, and drive the field that takes pressure off of our own defense to be great. 

Beyond that most defensive lineman need time (1-2) years to start hitting their stride even high picks. Chubb had a great season in DEN (12 sacks - via ESPN.com) but he was also the 5th pick. To those that want a pass rusher, do you think we're getting that production at #16, vs drafting a lineman that can protect Cam along with the other improvements all season. 

Also ''injury'' it was a big point of emphasis in one of you guys' posts above. Look at all the seasons that were derailed due to injury on the OL, and lack of depth. Let this settle a moment...

Moton / Rookie / Paradis / Turner / Williams

Primary depth - GVR / Larsen (Swing)

With that 7 alone we have some flexibility if a guy or two goes down, to me if we're looking at OL in the 1st it's not to solidify the Guard position, it's with the intent to solidify the T position. So while a quality Guard can be found in the 2nd or 3rd I don't think that would be the intent of the pick moving forward. 

Get the best pick to solidify the offensive line right now as well as leave us in a position to move on from Williams if the cost to re-sign is too high. 

When you look at the defensive line if you consider the depth there to be the best it has been in years, IMO it might make more sense to double dip in the 2nd and again later. We have more potential rushers that we can look to extend (Obada, Cox Jr) and Addison and Irvin could each be brought back as well, but given the group we have we at least have SOME options there to be top half of the league in sacks potentially, I don't think a rookie elevates that THIS season, at least not at 16.

In the top 10 I think that would be a different case. So while I may want a pass rusher, I think the smartest / best pick is offensive line. QB > OL > Edge in my opinion. You simply have to protect the BIGGEST investment on the team, and we've not done that well enough the last few years. 

 

[LinvilleGorge]

2 minutes ago, stbugs said:

Agree 100%. Look at Moton. He was the 5th or 6th tackle taken and that was a bad T class, worse than this year. It’s a crapshoot at any position but when you reach, your bust rate is even worse. When you draft the strength you are getting a better player later so you reduce your risk.

Too many people just see OL and think that all will be well. Look at our best OL lately. Moton was the last pick of the 2nd. Norwell was undrafted. Williams was a 4th and Turner was a 3rd. Even Ryan was a late 2nd. You know who our highest drafted OL in the past 5 years was? Good old speed bump. You know who our starting DL was in 2017 when it was still top 3 in sacks? Two first rounders, an early 2nd rounder and an undrafted guy.

I just think it has gotten incredibly hard to scout and project OL due to all the college's running for attacks. It's rare for a college OL to actually have to process anything. They just line up and block the man in front of them. They don't deal with many exotic blitz looks or DL stunts. So NFL teams are basically left to just draft the best athletes and hope they can develop them into real OL because there's not much relevant film to study. Then when those guys get to the league and have to block actual NFL pass rushers for more than 2.5 seconds and pick up blitzes and stunts they get exposed big time. Everyone thinks OL are just big dumb oafs but generally speaking they're the smartest guys on the field outside of QB.

[SetfreexX]

21 minutes ago, stbugs said:

Agree 100%. Look at Moton. He was the 5th or 6th tackle taken and that was a bad T class, worse than this year. It’s a crapshoot at any position but when you reach, your bust rate is even worse. When you draft the strength you are getting a better player later so you reduce your risk.

Too many people just see OL and think that all will be well. Look at our best OL lately. Moton was the last pick of the 2nd. Norwell was undrafted. Williams was a 4th and Turner was a 3rd. Even Ryan was a late 2nd. You know who our highest drafted OL in the past 5 years was? Good old speed bump. You know who our starting DL was in 2017 when it was still top 3 in sacks? Two first rounders, an early 2nd rounder and an undrafted guy.

This is the thing though none of those guys were ready to start year one, all of them sat at least a season, it's why they weren't first rounders or drafted at all -- they all had the tools but needed development. 

So let's not treat it like first round pass rushers don't also require time. At #16 because again the position of the pick is important - we're not getting a premiere rusher, as they will be gone in the top 10. By #16 we're likely getting one of the guys that will need some time - similar to Moore last year at receiver. 

I believe at #16 in regard to the OL we could be looking at a day one starter and it would not be a reach. Again personally I lean towards pass rush, I just think this year may be the year to address the offensive line with the best available talent. 

I would not be disappointed with a edge rusher, I just don't think that would have the BIGGEST impact on our roster this year as we have more guys available at that position - (Addison / Irvin / Obaba / Cox Jr / Haynes)

And while I like GVR and think he could hold down LG again, a true OL upgrade in an offensive driven league I think elevates us more than a 3rd edge rusher would this season, and in the long run. Also allowing us to have two solid back ups in GVR & Larsen vs only one. 

I liked what I saw with Cox, and Obada in limited snaps, I think it's time to see what we have in them (Addison was undrafted), and CJ, and Hardy each took multiple years to develop into the perennial talents that they were during their time. 

[LinvilleGorge]

This might be a shocking revelation but you don't make 1st round picks just for their rookie seasons.

I sure as hell don't want to pass up quality pass rushing prospects because of guys like Cox and Obada.

We had a bottom 5 NFL pass rush last season and our 2nd best pass rusher retired. We signed a band and in FA but there's nothing on the roster for edge rushers beyond next season.

[Sub Zero]

11 minutes ago, SetfreexX said:

This is the thing though none of those guys were ready to start year one, all of them sat at least a season, it's why they weren't first rounders or drafted at all -- they all had the tools but needed development. 

So let's not treat it like first round pass rushers don't also require time. At #16 because again the position of the pick is important - we're not getting a premiere rusher, as they will be gone in the top 10. By #16 we're likely getting one of the guys that will need some time - similar to Moore last year at receiver. 

I believe at #16 in regard to the OL we could be looking at a day one starter and it would not be a reach. Again personally I lean towards pass rush, I just think this year may be the year to address the offensive line with the best available talent. 

I would not be disappointed with a edge rusher, I just don't think that would have the BIGGEST impact on our roster this year as we have more guys available at that position - (Addison / Irvin / Obaba / Cox Jr / Haynes)

And while I like GVR and think he could hold down LG again, a true OL upgrade in an offensive driven league I think elevates us more than a 3rd edge rusher would this season, and in the long run. Also allowing us to have two solid back ups in GVR & Larsen vs only one. 

I liked what I saw with Cox, and Obada in limited snaps, I think it's time to see what we have in them (Addison was undrafted), and CJ, and Hardy each took multiple years to develop into the perennial talents that they were during their time. 

Sound just like the Mccnutt and King love 2014..  Same arguments made for them..  

Diamonds in the rough are rare for a reason...