PFF: After-the-catch numbers could signal an impending fantasy breakout for D.J. Moore

[Snake]

If Cam gets his arm back all our guys could breakout. For once we have WRs that catch the Damn ball.

[Lumps]

23 hours ago, TheSpecialJuan said:

t the combine, Carolina Panthers head coach Ron Rivera had some interesting quotes regarding sophomore-to-be wide receiver D.J. Moore.

Here was his first response:

“How do you label a number one? Is it a vertical No. 1 threat, or is it a guy that works underneath the defense? For us, he has both skill sets, but the most important thing is getting the ball in his hands, more than anything else.”

He then followed that up with:

“That’s the biggest thing we’ll work with [Moore] on: finding ways to get the ball in his hands. After the catch, I think he was No. 2 (in the league) in total yards after the catch… So he’s a guy you want to put the ball in his hands. You’ve just got to find ways to do it.”

Well, first of all, I have to wonder if Rivera isn’t a PFF Elite member, based on his reference to Moore’s yards-after-the-catch numbers (which subscribers can access for themselves here.) Rivera was right – among all 93 wide receivers to see at least 40 targets, Moore ranked second (behind only Dante Pettis) in yards after the catch per reception (7.91).

Soooooooo why didn’t finding ways to get the ball in his hands include playing Funchess and Smith over him last year? Better question....why the fug was the first receiver taken overall in the 2018 draft even sitting on the bench?

[nickzz]

[Mr. Scot]

11 hours ago, stbugs said:

You know the answer. We all know the answer. It’s why I laugh people said Moton couldn’t be a LT because he couldn’t beat out Matt as if Matt was actually better. 

Pretty much.

Only thing I remember finding a little concerning was that once he did start getting regular playing time, it seemed early on like we were frequently getting the ball to him on gadget plays as opposed to passes. Led to some speculation that his route running might need work (not really uncommon for rookie receivers these days).

My sense was that later on in the season that trend stopped, so it's not something I'm all that worried about going into this year.

[panthers55]

17 hours ago, stbugs said:

You know the answer. We all know the answer. It’s why I laugh people said Moton couldn’t be a LT because he couldn’t beat out Matt as if Matt was actually better. 

 

17 hours ago, Lumps said:

Soooooooo why didn’t finding ways to get the ball in his hands include playing Funchess and Smith over him last year? Better question....why the fug was the first receiver taken overall in the 2018 draft even sitting on the bench?

We did when he was ready. This offense is not easy to.learn and we started off with certain plays and packages and expanded them as he learned all the route tree and our offense. Honestly he was given every chance including continuing to play him after several fumbles in one game.  It is more likely a defensive player starts right away than an offensive one given one is read and react while the other needs to understand all of the offensive nuances before they can start. Complaining about a rookie being eased into a  starting role says more about your understanding about developing players than it does Rivera not seeing the talent around him. 

[Lumps]

5 hours ago, panthers55 said:

 

We did when he was ready. This offense is not easy to.learn and we started off with certain plays and packages and expanded them as he learned all the route tree and our offense. Honestly he was given every chance including continuing to play him after several fumbles in one game.  It is more likely a defensive player starts right away than an offensive one given one is read and react while the other needs to understand all of the offensive nuances before they can start. Complaining about a rookie being eased into a  starting role says more about your understanding about developing players than it does Rivera not seeing the talent around him. 

Smith and Funchess were dropping balls as well...as vets, don't see much of an argument. As far as routes, plenty of teams in the NFL use rookie WRs, especially the first one taken off the board. Why are the Panthers different?

You're right, we have no reason to be skeptical about the talent Rivera has around him he doesn't see. There isn't like a 9 year span of awful talent evaluation.

[LinvilleGorge]

5 hours ago, panthers55 said:

 

We did when he was ready. This offense is not easy to.learn and we started off with certain plays and packages and expanded them as he learned all the route tree and our offense. Honestly he was given every chance including continuing to play him after several fumbles in one game.  It is more likely a defensive player starts right away than an offensive one given one is read and react while the other needs to understand all of the offensive nuances before they can start. Complaining about a rookie being eased into a  starting role says more about your understanding about developing players than it does Rivera not seeing the talent around him. 

I see it as a crutch for coaches who can't adapt. It's their job to figure out a way to get the most out of their most talented players. If we consistently fielded a winning football team I'd have a lot more confidence in this staff, but time and time again we have seen injuries expose the fact that we weren't playing our best football players until we were essentially forced to do it.

I'm fine with bringing young players along slowly when you have the depth to be able to do it, but at the end of the day, you have to put your best talent on the field and it's up to the coaching staff to figure out how to best utilize them.

[panthers55]

9 minutes ago, Lumps said:

Smith and Funchess were dropping balls as well...as vets, don't see much of an argument. As far as routes, plenty of teams in the NFL use rookie WRs, especially the first one taken off the board. Why are the Panthers different?

You're right, we have no reason to be skeptical about the talent Rivera has around him he doesn't see. There isn't like a 9 year span of awful talent evaluation.

Your argument has nothing to do with Moore. Dropping passes by vets and the fact other teams may play their first rounder earlier than Rivera is irrelevant to the argument which you ignored.

It isn't about other players but is about Moore. By everything I read before and during the season, Moore was brought along and gained playing time as his understanding of the offense evolved. Our staff have usually wanted a player to learn the whole route tree and only give them limited opportunities until they learn their role. You can argue you don't like that philosophy but that has little to do with whether Ron knows their ability so much as reflects how he feels about rookies and develops them.

[SOJA]

A big thing Moore needs to work on is refining his route running ability. This can be a learned skill. Nate Burleson was a great route runner and he publicly admits that he had no idea how to run routes when he came into the league. 

[Lumps]

2 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

Your argument has nothing to do with Moore. Dropping passes by vets and the fact other teams may play their first rounder earlier than Rivera is irrelevant to the argument which you ignored.

It isn't about other players but is about Moore. By everything I read before and during the season, Moore was brought along and gained playing time as his understanding of the offense evolved. Our staff have usually wanted a player to learn the whole route tree and only give them limited opportunities until they learn their role. You can argue you don't like that philosophy but that has little to do with whether Ron knows their ability so much as reflects how he feels about rookies and develops them.

Moore wasn't brought in because he was 'ready', (and neither was Norwell) he was brought in because Rivera had no choice due to injury PER USUAL. And yea, that's a shitty philosophy. And proven it was shitty time and time again. It's Rivera's weakness and shows time and time again with rookies vs. vets.

I mean I'm really not sure what you're trying to argue the facts and history are there, at the end of the day it's obvious Moore (and past players) should have not been on the bench.

[panthers55]

29 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I see it as a crutch for coaches who can't adapt. It's their job to figure out a way to get the most out of their most talented players. If we consistently fielded a winning football team I'd have a lot more confidence in this staff, but time and time again we have seen injuries expose the fact that we weren't playing our best football players until we were essentially forced to do it.

I'm fine with bringing young players along slowly when you have the depth to be able to do it, but at the end of the day, you have to put your best talent on the field and it's up to the coaching staff to figure out how to best utilize them.

That whole argument about not playing rookies until the vets gets hurt may be somewhat true because you usually play your backups when your starters get hurt and most always rookies are considered backups and have to earn the starter role by beating out the vet in practice before they get a shot in a game. But this is what all coaches typically do. It isn't a Rivera problem alone. Using your logic I guess no head coach knows talent since they all work rookies into the lineup and most times it is after the season starts and there is a problem with the vet either playing poorly or getting injured.  Since we see the rookies come in most times after sitting, if they play well the argument can be easily be made that Rivera and staff did the right thing by waiting and if they had to rush their training reps due to injury then they did a great job. The whole argument that this is a  knock on Rivera and his staff has been picked by critics and complainers without a lot of objective information. Because it is easy to say they played when they were ready or after Ron and his staff worked overtime to speed up their development if they had to appear early due to injury rather than ignoring them until he had to.play them. 

[LinvilleGorge]

3 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

That whole argument about not playing rookies until the vets gets hurt may be somewhat true because you usually play your backups when your starters get hurt and most always rookies are considered backups and have to earn the starter role by beating out the vet in practice before they get a shot in a game. But this is what all coaches typically do. It isn't a Rivera problem alone. Using your logic I guess no head coach knows talent since they all work rookies into the lineup and most times it is after the season starts and there is a problem with the vet either playing poorly or getting injured.  Since we see the rookies come in most times after sitting, if they play well the argument can be easily.made that Rivera and staff did the right thing by well and if they have to rush their training reps due to injury then they did a great job. The whole argument this is knock to Rivera and his staff has been picked by critics and complainers without a lot of objective information. Because it is easy to say they played when they were ready or after Ron and his staff worked overtime to speed up their development if they had to appear early due to injury 

You could've saved yourself a lot of typing with a simple, "I blindly trust Ron Rivera."

[panthers55]

22 minutes ago, Lumps said:

Moore wasn't brought in because he was 'ready', (and neither was Norwell) he was brought in because Rivera had no choice due to injury PER USUAL. And yea, that's a shitty philosophy. And proven it was shitty time and time again. It's Rivera's weakness and shows time and time again with rookies vs. vets.

I mean I'm really not sure what you're trying to argue the facts and history are there, at the end of the day it's obvious Moore (and past players) should have not been on the bench.

Moore was getting reps all along with  his reps increasing due to success and showing he could do more. Of course backups usually start due to injury, that is the way the league works. Most times starters get the majority of reps and backups less. So Moore would have to show in games he is ready for more reps and then in practice show he is ready. That is how it works.

Your argument seems to say he should have started totally disregarding the notion he played into a starter role because of how they handled him. You admitted he was unpolished and needed work. So he got it. You are talking in circles.

[panthers55]

1 minute ago, LinvilleGorge said:

You could've saved yourself a lot of typing with a simple, "I blindly trust Ron Rivera."

I simply understand how things work and explain them. It isn't a matter of trust at all. I just laugh at the notion that he doesn't know talent or wouldn't play a first rounder as soon as he felt he was ready.