Panthers pick up option on Torrey Smith

[MasterAwesome]

18 minutes ago, Toomers said:

Well. I don’t see how you can look at it like that and claim a huge win. Surely not some slam dunk genius move. Yes it was Gaulden. 

 And us starting the season with Adams/Searcy at S was even more of a reason why he should have been signed. It wasn’t going to be much more money. And he starts day one instead of missing time. This issue stands alone. Not like any other issue. If he was good in September, he was good in July. Did his balls drop over two months? 

I’m not sure how else to explain it. Yes I consider it a huge win to acquire premium draft capital for a failure of a player who, statistics would suggest, was in fact holding our offense back. Comparing trading to drafting is apples to oranges...he made a great trade, and then he has seemingly butchered the draft pick. I don’t treat that as one singular decision. Honestly I’m not sure why we’re even arguing this point since the implications of both of our perspectives are basically the same. You’re treating the KB trade/Gaulden pick as one singular entity meaning it was ultimately a wash, and I’m treating the KB trade as a plus and the Gaulden pick as a minus, which is also ultimately a wash. What is the point of this?

According to your rationale of looking at the net result, then would you say something like the CJ Anderson ordeal was a wash? Hurney signed him in the first place and then cut him later in the season...so do you just treat that as a neutral, inconsequential situation or are you among the people that criticize Hurney for cutting him for no reason? That’s why I split transactions up individually because it’s easier to assess whether something was a good or bad move on its own merits. If you tie everything together then things get muddled.

I acknowledged that signing Reid would have been ideal earlier...but again, I find that extremely nitpicky. Ultimately he made a beneficial call to improve the roster that 31 other teams were unwilling to make. That’s a positive in my book.

[Moo Daeng]

It's absurd to give up an a 3rd round pick in Gaulden  after a single season when we knew in advance he would need time.

[Toomers]

 

46 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

I’m not sure how else to explain it. Yes I consider it a huge win to acquire premium draft capital for a failure of a player who, statistics would suggest, was in fact holding our offense back. Comparing trading to drafting is apples to oranges...he made a great trade, and then he has seemingly butchered the draft pick. I don’t treat that as one singular decision. Honestly I’m not sure why we’re even arguing this point since the implications of both of our perspectives are basically the same. You’re treating the KB trade/Gaulden pick as one singular entity meaning it was ultimately a wash, and I’m treating the KB trade as a plus and the Gaulden pick as a minus, which is also ultimately a wash. What is the point of this?

According to your rationale of looking at the net result, then would you say something like the CJ Anderson ordeal was a wash? Hurney signed him in the first place and then cut him later in the season...so do you just treat that as a neutral, inconsequential situation or are you among the people that criticize Hurney for cutting him for no reason? That’s why I split transactions up individually because it’s easier to assess whether something was a good or bad move on its own merits. If you tie everything together then things get muddled.

I acknowledged that signing Reid would have been ideal earlier...but again, I find that extremely nitpicky. Ultimately he made a beneficial call to improve the roster that 31 other teams were unwilling to make. That’s a positive in my book.

  I just include the entire result. You have to win something, or at least have something positive to the team to have a huge win. What have we won? So far. It’s not more than we lost. Which is sad.

 It doesn’t really matter if signing CJ was good(it was) if you tear up a paid for insurance policy to buy two lower level policies. He spent money to make us worse off. Again. The result is what matters.

     And I’m not giving him credit for desperation. Why is Adams or Searcy playing over him. Ever? So balls is a stretch to me. Just feels like reaching for credit. 

[top dawg]

1 hour ago, Toomers said:

So you mean like if Olsen doesn’t get hurt...twice...Thomas doesn’t start. Or he’s still not a starter now. But last year was great because 3 starters. Any of those players done less than Thomas, DJ, Jackson? Any of those three guaranteed to be starting in a few years. We can include Hurney last 4. And see who left who more. 

 And yes, GMs have other jobs. But ours has proven awful at that part of his job and sure hasn’t improved any in that area. If so, it’s hard to find examples. There are plenty he’s still incompetent. 

What/who is wrong on my list compared to the credit you give Hurney for his draft? I’m looking at facts. Which is what I did. You’re twisting it to suit your narrative. What are these one or two factors that are forming my perspective? Do tell.

 

 

Obviously "All-Pro" and being a "starter." You're trying to suggest that that those are the litmus test for a good draft, and I'm telling you that in some respects that is fool's gold. Simple. 

[DeAngelo Beason]

This is why it's a miracle any time this team manages to claw its way out of the dumpster.  Sh*t gets old man...

[Toomers]

2 hours ago, top dawg said:

Obviously "All-Pro" and being a "starter." You're trying to suggest that that those are the litmus test for a good draft, and I'm telling you that in some respects that is fool's gold. Simple. 

You’re right. I should have used fantasy and bias like you. Facts don’t usually gel with anything you say. Obviously. 

 

[top dawg]

45 minutes ago, Toomers said:

You’re right. I should have used fantasy and bias like you. Facts don’t usually gel with anything you say. Obviously. 

What like the fact that the last Super Bowl team that we had was chock full of Hurney-picked multi-year All-Pros who were legit starters for more than a year or two? You mean facts like that? 

I'm not interested in having a Hurney Gettleman debate with you or anyone. They're useless and pointless. 

You're going to criticise anything and everything that Hurney does or doesn't do, regardless if it makes sense, and regardless of context and circumstances.

Now go back to your crystal ball and tell me how Hurney is going to screw this free agency up, how he's going to screw this draft up, and how Smith is going to be a worthless Carolina Panther in 2019. Oh yeah, at five million dollars.

[Cpt slay a ho]

3 hours ago, Moo Daeng said:

It's absurd to give up an a 3rd round pick in Gaulden  after a single season when we knew in advance he would need time.

This, what happen to waiting a couple seasons before declaring someone a bust....butler got 3 years before we considered him a bust, keep that same energy 

[MasterAwesome]

3 hours ago, Toomers said:

 

  I just include the entire result. You have to win something, or at least have something positive to the team to have a huge win. What have we won? So far. It’s not more than we lost. Which is sad.

 It doesn’t really matter if signing CJ was good(it was) if you tear up a paid for insurance policy to buy two lower level policies. He spent money to make us worse off. Again. The result is what matters.

     And I’m not giving him credit for desperation. Why is Adams or Searcy playing over him. Ever? So balls is a stretch to me. Just feels like reaching for credit. 

That’s perfectly fine, and to me it feels like you’re reaching to discredit Hurney...which goes to show how powerful of a role perception plays in a debate, huh? The “having balls” comment comes from the immense potential scrutiny and backlash from the media and public for signing Reid in light of the political climate, so I’m not sure what desperation does to make that signing any less ballsy. That impending backlash was always going to be there. Look at how divisive that signing has been just for the posters in here. Are you suggesting the public would be giving Hurney a pass because they’ll be like “oh look at the safety situation...he needed to make this signing. No worries”. You think people are gonna give the benefit of the doubt to their favorite football team, over their political and moral convictions? Signing Reid was a ballsy move, no matter the surrounding circumstances. No other team had a dire situation at safety?

If the end result is what matters, as you put it, then why are you attaching all these conditions and qualifiers to the Reid signing to undermine its significance? The end result is that it made our team better, did it not? Is it just that you’re hung up on the fact that I said it took balls to make that signing? If so, then hopefully I adequately addressed my reasoning for such a statement.

[shaqattaq]

On 3/7/2019 at 8:09 PM, TheSpecialJuan said:

The Panthers could still eventually cut Smith with no cap charge

[frash.exe]

6 hours ago, MasterAwesome said:

-Okay...guess we’re making this a Hurney vs. Gettleman thing. I was tasked with listing out some good things “Hurney 2.0” has done since taking over as if it was some impossibly daunting task...not to do an in-depth comparison of Hurney vs. Gettleman. Since you appear to be referencing my Gettleman criticisms directed towards Mr. Scot, that’s because he wears his “Team G-Man” blinders which opens him up to incredible levels of hypocrisy and double-standards, so I poke fun at him when I see it...it’s kinda our thing.

-Since you wanna make the comparison though, cherry-picking Gettleman’s best and arguably single good draft vs. “Hurney 2.0”s only draft isn’t a compelling argument of relative drafting prowess. Gettleman averaged basically one solid contributor a year until the 2017 draft, which I admit is looking to be a pretty darn good one. Also, again let me remind you that I was asked to reference the good things Hurney did upon returning to the Panthers (I.e. “Hurney 2.0”)...so why are you bringing up Hurney’s historical flubs? Yeah he was absolutely terrible at drafting before he got fired...unfortunately that is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

-You're damn right I’m giving him credit for letting Norwell walk. For one, it shows evolution and maturity that Hurney has learned from his last stint...you know, exactly what you want to see from him the second time around. Especially considering people still hold his previous egregious mistakes against him in those regards. Also, apparently it wasn’t a no-brainer as there are people on this board criticizing him even now for not extending him + Star (like Fuzz I believe?).

-I’ve already addressed the Torrey Smith thing so I’ll refer you back to my previous post again.

-The Poe signing seemingly bombed in hindsight, but it was a signing I was excited about at the time and I appreciate that he tried to address the hole that Star left as he left in FA. It made a lot of sense at the time and a lot of us were excited and thought it was an upgrade over Star for less money, but ultimately it was a failed signing so he gets blame for it. I’m just not as hard on him about that because unlike someone like Mr. Scot, I don’t like to wholeheartedly support a signing at the time, and then turn around and blast the person’s judgment and credibility in hindsight for making said signing if it doesn’t work out. Still, for sure that was a bad signing.

-Not sure what you’re going on about with the Eric Reid thing. Hurney doesn’t get credit because our current owner is not a despicable racist? Or something...can you clarify that? Are all other owners racist and so Hurney was the only one with permission to make that signing? Just a very bizzare point you’re trying to make. Last I checked, GMs are in charge of personnel decisions including FA signings...not the owner. If you want to give Tepper credit for that instead of Hurney, then show me any evidence to suggest that Tepper was behind it (in fact, the only thing I remember reading was to the contrary: that Tepper did not involve himself in that decision). Otherwise, I’m gonna stick with choosing to give credit to the person whose job duties that falls under. How convenient that must be to be able to deflect credit elsewhere to the owner to fit a narrative. I bet you think JR forced Gettleman to sign Matt Kalil to that contract. How nice would it be if the Hurney lovers can just, in turn, say that Tepper forced him to keep Gano over Butker and sign Poe, and the Illuminati made him draft Gaulden over Ronnie Harrison or whoever else in the 3rd round.

Your whole post seeps blind hatred for Hurney so you’re not the kind of person I expect to have a substantive debate with, driven by facts and logic.

Any other points of contention you want to follow up on? At least you tried to sprinkle in some thoughtful arguments along with your condescension, so I give you credit over many people in here.

all of that incoherent rambling was basically a recitation of what you already said. thanks for wasting my time. i’d ask you to venmo me for humoring you, but i think you need the bus fare so forget about it. 

8 hours ago, top dawg said:

Gettleman did a very good job managing the cap, but Rivera did a better job coaching. If you're trying to tell me that Gettleman was a better GM than Ron was a coach, then you are fooling yourself. Plus, Gettleman can't seem to make it to the playoffs without Rivera. Interesting.

giving ron the bulk of the credit for that run is some of the most revisionist bullshit i’ve read on here for some time. if ron was that good he would have at least beat the niners at home in the playoffs since he had already shown he could beat a team like that with the roster that he had in that year. but he didn’t. he struggled with clock management and in his early years he struggled a lot with that. we’ve lost or almost lost a lot of games bc he wants to sit on a 10 point lead before the 2nd quarter is even over. if it wasn’t for a rule change we definitely would’ve lost that monday night game against indy in 2015 which would have ended the winning streak months before it actually happened and it’s bc he softened up when we were up 23-6. he doesn’t do a good job managing his staff and overpromotes his assistants (while more qualified external candidates are available) until they are in way over their head and don’t know what they are doing. he isn’t very competitive against division rivals. that game he called against pittsburgh last season was a fuging disgrace and then he follows it up with 6 more losses in a row.

[frash.exe]

also it’s not “hurney 2.0” it’s more like “hurney 2: electric boogaloo” and it’s 7-9

[MasterAwesome]

17 minutes ago, frash.exe said:

all of that incoherent rambling was basically a recitation of what you already said. thanks for wasting my time. i’d ask you to venmo me for humoring you, but i think you need the bus fare so forget about it. 

Lol I literally took each of your silly points and disputed them one-by-one...but apparently that wasn’t simple enough for you. Dodging my points and resorting to ad hominems...you go to the Mr. Scot school of debate? That’s just too uncanny...I really thought he was one of a kind. If you want to try and step in the ring and debate me in good faith, then don’t run away when the going gets tough. You wasted your own time by sticking your neck in and looking foolish while I prove once again that logical discussion wins over emotional ranting every day.

And I thought it was obvious that I was using “Hurney 2.0” facetiously with the quotation marks because I don’t want to say “Hurney during his second stint upon returning to the team” every time I’m referencing him...but again, I’ll dumb it down for you next time.

[frash.exe]

3 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

Lol I literally took each of your silly points and disputed them one-by-one...but apparently that wasn’t simple enough for you. Dodging my points and resorting to ad hominems...you go to the Mr. Scot school of debate? That’s just too uncanny...I really thought he was one of a kind. If you want to try and step in the ring and debate me in good faith, then don’t run away when the going gets tough. You wasted your own time by sticking your neck in and looking foolish while I prove once again that logical discussion wins over emotional ranting every day.

And I thought it was obvious that I was using “Hurney 2.0” facetiously with the quotation marks because I don’t want to say “Hurney during his second stint upon returning to the team” every time I’m referencing him...but again, I’ll dumb it down for you next time.

i already refuted your points

if you want to repeat them that’s not my problem