Panthers pick up option on Torrey Smith

[frash.exe]

it becomes a gettleman/hurney thread bc some of the biggest talkers completely change their arguments and expectations depending on who’s running the team. that’s pretty obvious to anybody who has been hanging around this place since before yesterday. 

[top dawg]

11 minutes ago, frash.exe said:

ron rivera has not had one playoff appearance without gettleman running his offseasons.

i don’t conveniently forget anything. you put your negative spin on his body of work at a molecular level because he cut your favorite route runner. and hurney comes back and magically your optimism returns.

lump off

WITF are you talking about? You don't even know.

Ron Rivera inherited a train wreck, so it's no wonder that he hadn't had a playoff appearance. Gettleman hadn't either without Ron.

As the written record will show, I was never upset about him cutting Smith (I guess that's who you're referring to), just the utterly stupid, unprecedented way that he did it.

I am optimistic every offseason, when Gman was here and otherwise. Why be all negative and down in the doldrums when change is in the air? Not too bright. Certainly not good from an emotional standpoint. If I felt utterly negative about my team and the way that it is run from year to year, I'd just go find another one. 

[top dawg]

Just now, frash.exe said:

it becomes a gettleman/hurney thread bc some of the biggest talkers completely change their arguments and expectations depending on who’s running the team. that’s pretty obvious to anybody who has been hanging around this place since before yesterday. 

Which is an utter lie. 

[Car123]

18 minutes ago, Peon Awesome said:

When did this become a Hurney vs Gettleman thread? It seems like Gettleman's mom is in this thread the way some people are supporting him so wholeheartedly. Objectively, this is the way I see it:

Hurney's first run as GM was just awful. The main thing I will give him credit for is knocking his 1st round picks out of the water, but his drafting was otherwise pretty awful on top of the fact that he would routinely trade next year's higher round pick to draft a bust in the current draft (e.g. Everette Brown, Armanti Edwards). Then he would vastly overpay our homegrown talent and limit our ability to spend on other players to fill out our team. Just bad all around. 

Gettleman inherited cap hell from Hurney and his moves need to be evaluated in that context. He did a fantastic job of finding value free agents who overachieved. In many ways he was the anti-Hurney. Terrible at first round picks (although not particularly great at drafting in general) and strongarmed our talented players in negotiation to the point of driving them out in frustration. The way he handled the Josh Norman contract situation was just awful and seemed to sap the electricity out of our super bowl team. Once he actually had cap room, he used it on Matt Kalil, which was one of the worst contracts in our history. We were successful during his years, but you have to give both Hurney and him credit for that. Hurney made the draft picks on the majority of the leaders of the team and Gettleman helped us navigate out of cap hell and fill our roster with enough cheap talent to succeed. Thinking Gettleman gets all the credit cause we had our best years under him is short-sighted. Thinking Hurney gets all the blame for the past 2 years even though Gettleman's fingerprints are all over this roster (or lack thereof in the case of the numerous draft picks we have already cut) is also putting on blinders. Either way, they both deserve their fair share of credit and blame.

I for one think Hurney deserves some praise from learning from his mistakes. He has done an infinitely better job than he did the first time. Even the signings that didn't pan out seemed to make some sense at the time, like Dontari Poe, and didn't break the bank and put us in cap hell like before. No GM is perfect, but I think he has been well-deserving of another year to right the ship. And we'll see what happens after that.

Good post.

[top dawg]

1 hour ago, Toomers said:

NT who did exactly what we asked him to and was sorely missed. Place did cartwheels. 

All-Pro DT(2)

All-Pro RG(3)

All-Pro LG(UDFA)

2nd team All-Pro RT(4)

Top 5 RB

Samuel, Moton, Thompson, Butker, Armah, Benjamin(still brought a 3rd back) Bradberry, Boston, Bene, 

Thats 15 starters in 5 years. With an All-Pro a year almost. And Moton and CMC might be best yet. So if 3 starters is so great for Hurney, why does it suck for DG? 

You're comparing a draft to like five. You're also looking at it from the perspective of one (possibly two) factor(s). And let's not pretend like just because someone is a starter means that they should be starting (or if they will be starting a few years removed from being drafted). Moreover, draft aside, GMs have other responsibilities. And, lastly, Hurney didn't have a "great" draft. He appears to have had a good one---the best one in years, particularly if Smith or Haynes pans out. But our best teams have been a testament to Hurney's drafts...

[ras977]

"The way he handled the Josh Norman contract situation was just awful and seemed to sap the electricity out of our super bowl team."

End of discussion.

[frash.exe]

46 minutes ago, top dawg said:

WITF are you talking about? You don't even know.

Ron Rivera inherited a train wreck, so it's no wonder that he hadn't had a playoff appearance. Gettleman hadn't either without Ron.

As the written record will show, I was never upset about him cutting Smith (I guess that's who you're referring to), just the utterly stupid, unprecedented way that he did it.

I am optimistic every offseason, when Gman was here and otherwise. Why be all negative and down in the doldrums when change is in the air? Not too bright. Certainly not good from an emotional standpoint. If I felt utterly negative about my team and the way that it is run from year to year, I'd just go find another one. 

and that 2012 7-9 roster that gettleman inherited that was over 10 million in salary cap hell wasn’t a train wreck? he converted that mess into the first winning season in over 5 years.

curious as to how you wouldn’t think to bring that up when you need to make a point about walking into train wrecks. maybe steve smith knows.

[top dawg]

20 minutes ago, frash.exe said:

and that 2012 7-9 roster that gettleman inherited that was over 10 million in salary cap hell wasn’t a train wreck? he converted that mess into the first winning season in over 5 years.

curious as to how you wouldn’t think to bring that up when you need to make a point about walking into train wrecks. maybe steve smith knows.

Because it wasn't pertinent to the discussion. You're the one acting like Ron should have made a postseason appearance his first year or two here. I gave you a reason why that was a crazy expectation and reason to cast negativity upon the guy.

[frash.exe]

6 minutes ago, top dawg said:

Because it wasn't pertinent to the discussion. You're the one acting like Ron should have made a postseason appearance his first year or two here. I gave you a reason why that was a crazy expectation and reason to cast negativity upon the guy.

hold on

you said ron was making him look good, to which i carefully point out that he hasn’t made the playoffs without gettleman running his teams. then you want to argue that ron inherited a mess, but i can bring up the mess that gettleman inherited and you call it irrelevant. don’t act like these things aren’t intertwined because they are. without gettleman’s cap crunching decisiveness in 2013, and his double dipping at DT, and the good contributing vets that gettleman was known for bringing in, we don’t make the playoffs. so who’s making who look good again? you refuse to acknowledge it and you’re playing it off as if you’re innocently objective. 

[top dawg]

13 minutes ago, frash.exe said:

hold on

you said ron was making him look good, to which i carefully point out that he hasn’t made the playoffs without gettleman running his teams. then you want to argue that ron inherited a mess, but i can bring up the mess that gettleman inherited and you call it irrelevant. don’t act like these things aren’t intertwined because they are. without gettleman’s cap crunching decisiveness in 2013, and his double dipping at DT, and the good contributing vets that gettleman was known for bringing in, we don’t make the playoffs. so who’s making who look good again? you refuse to acknowledge it and you’re playing it off as if you’re innocently objective. 

Gettleman did a very good job managing the cap, but Rivera did a better job coaching. If you're trying to tell me that Gettleman was a better GM than Ron was a coach, then you are fooling yourself. Plus, Gettleman can't seem to make it to the playoffs without Rivera. Interesting.

[MasterAwesome]

3 hours ago, frash.exe said:

you literally have zero clue what you’re talking about on multiple points

first of all let’s go over you basically dismissing some of hurney’s picks like everybody makes mistakes in the draft, but when you talk about gettleman it’s a completely different tune. “his drafts suck”, yea sure. he picked at least three guys in 2017 that are panning out, so idk how that doesn’t pop up in your head when you think about a good draft (you basically  say that three starters makes a pretty good draft), and a lot of players that ppl use like punchlines had contributed for a short time. i think that speaks a lot about how a guy can build a roster, well if 4 out of 5 seasons making the playoffs isn’t a good enough explanation. 

but just bc they didn’t turn into ten year all pros ppl act like these drafts didn’t make the team into a consistent force. meanwhile hurney can draft every misfit player after his freebie top 15 layup pick that he should thank ron for being mediocre enough to earn so that he can have better talent on the big board, and everybody that has a big mouth on here about the matt kalil contract and the fuging vernon butler pick turns into fuging alan watts, like we’re all supposed to remember that it’s just football and not life and death.

other things like letting norwell go you’re basically giving him credit for which is really irrelevant considering that guy was hitting the market no matter who was the GM. trai turner was already extended and we’re not spending like half our cap money on offensive guards every year. hurney hasn’t showed he’s changed much at all. yea, thank god he’s not sending daryl williams a blank check while torrey smith earns 5 million more loafing his way to another >200 yards receiving and dontari poe continues to be the spiritual successor to ma’ake kemoeatu.

other than that there’s the eric reid part which completely ignores the fact that if JR was still here, that contract would never have even existed as a suggestion out of marty’s crooked lips, even if you can accept that it was his idea and not tepper’s.

the fact that ppl are actually praising this post says a lot about how awful this place has become since 2017.

-Okay...guess we’re making this a Hurney vs. Gettleman thing. I was tasked with listing out some good things “Hurney 2.0” has done since taking over as if it was some impossibly daunting task...not to do an in-depth comparison of Hurney vs. Gettleman. Since you appear to be referencing my Gettleman criticisms directed towards Mr. Scot, that’s because he wears his “Team G-Man” blinders which opens him up to incredible levels of hypocrisy and double-standards, so I poke fun at him when I see it...it’s kinda our thing.

-Since you wanna make the comparison though, cherry-picking Gettleman’s best and arguably single good draft vs. “Hurney 2.0”s only draft isn’t a compelling argument of relative drafting prowess. Gettleman averaged basically one solid contributor a year until the 2017 draft, which I admit is looking to be a pretty darn good one. Also, again let me remind you that I was asked to reference the good things Hurney did upon returning to the Panthers (I.e. “Hurney 2.0”)...so why are you bringing up Hurney’s historical flubs? Yeah he was absolutely terrible at drafting before he got fired...unfortunately that is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

-You're damn right I’m giving him credit for letting Norwell walk. For one, it shows evolution and maturity that Hurney has learned from his last stint...you know, exactly what you want to see from him the second time around. Especially considering people still hold his previous egregious mistakes against him in those regards. Also, apparently it wasn’t a no-brainer as there are people on this board criticizing him even now for not extending him + Star (like Fuzz I believe?).

-I’ve already addressed the Torrey Smith thing so I’ll refer you back to my previous post again.

-The Poe signing seemingly bombed in hindsight, but it was a signing I was excited about at the time and I appreciate that he tried to address the hole that Star left as he left in FA. It made a lot of sense at the time and a lot of us were excited and thought it was an upgrade over Star for less money, but ultimately it was a failed signing so he gets blame for it. I’m just not as hard on him about that because unlike someone like Mr. Scot, I don’t like to wholeheartedly support a signing at the time, and then turn around and blast the person’s judgment and credibility in hindsight for making said signing if it doesn’t work out. Still, for sure that was a bad signing.

-Not sure what you’re going on about with the Eric Reid thing. Hurney doesn’t get credit because our current owner is not a despicable racist? Or something...can you clarify that? Are all other owners racist and so Hurney was the only one with permission to make that signing? Just a very bizzare point you’re trying to make. Last I checked, GMs are in charge of personnel decisions including FA signings...not the owner. If you want to give Tepper credit for that instead of Hurney, then show me any evidence to suggest that Tepper was behind it (in fact, the only thing I remember reading was to the contrary: that Tepper did not involve himself in that decision). Otherwise, I’m gonna stick with choosing to give credit to the person whose job duties that falls under. How convenient that must be to be able to deflect credit elsewhere to the owner to fit a narrative. I bet you think JR forced Gettleman to sign Matt Kalil to that contract. How nice would it be if the Hurney lovers can just, in turn, say that Tepper forced him to keep Gano over Butker and sign Poe, and the Illuminati made him draft Gaulden over Ronnie Harrison or whoever else in the 3rd round.

Your whole post seeps blind hatred for Hurney so you’re not the kind of person I expect to have a substantive debate with, driven by facts and logic.

Any other points of contention you want to follow up on? At least you tried to sprinkle in some thoughtful arguments along with your condescension, so I give you credit over many people in here.

[MasterAwesome]

4 hours ago, Toomers said:

Nicely.done. Just a few points

1) While Hurney made the right decision(thank you BB) on trading KB, at this moment, we haven’t gotten one thing out of it. That could change quickly. But even with the colossal failure of KB, at least we would have had a WR in the playoffs. It’s real hard not to have more value than KB has, but right now, we havent gotten it. Not disputing the decision. But the results certainly don’t scream huge win. Yet. 

 Only other thing I disagree is Reid last year. If Hurney has balls, Reid would have been here in the summer. What took so long if you thought he could play. It shouldn’t have taken Colin Jones and desperation to get him. I hardly think Tepper was saying no.

 Draft was exactly as you put it. Whole post is good. 

Fair enough on the KB thing. I prefer to split up and judge each decision individually rather than come full circle and trace that decision through its entirety. That’s why I consider the KB trade as a huge win on its own merits, and then acknowledge that the Gaulden pick was seemingly a failure in its own rights. Or whatever we used KB’s pick on...not sure if it was Gaulden or not tbh.

I personally find it a bit nitpicky to criticize Hurney for not signing Reid earlier. I think we were probably relatively happy with our safety position in the summer with Searcy/Adams and Gaulden in the wings, but some extenuating circumstances had our safety situation become very dire very quickly. It would’ve been ideal for us to sign him earlier for sure, but I imagine that signing him a bit later in the season contributed to us getting him at such a bargain...purely speculative though, I admit. But ultimately Hurney did make the call to sign Reid which I credit him for. This is kind of the same argument with people criticizing Rivera for demoting Washington too late in the season, even though the demotion itself was the right move but a tough call IMO. I’m not in agreement that he “waited too long” given those particular circumstances, but that’s for a separate debate.

[Toomers]

4 hours ago, top dawg said:

You're comparing a draft to like five. You're also looking at it from the perspective of one (possibly two) factor(s). And let's not pretend like just because someone is a starter means that they should be starting (or if they will be starting a few years removed from being drafted). Moreover, draft aside, GMs have other responsibilities. And, lastly, Hurney didn't have a "great" draft. He appears to have had a good one---the best one in years, particularly if Smith or Haynes pans out. But our best teams have been a testament to Hurney's drafts...

So you mean like if Olsen doesn’t get hurt...twice...Thomas doesn’t start. Or he’s still not a starter now. But last year was great because 3 starters. Any of those players done less than Thomas, DJ, Jackson? Any of those three guaranteed to be starting in a few years. We can include Hurney last 4. And see who left who more. 

 And yes, GMs have other jobs. But ours has proven awful at that part of his job and sure hasn’t improved any in that area. If so, it’s hard to find examples. There are plenty he’s still incompetent. 

What/who is wrong on my list compared to the credit you give Hurney for his draft? I’m looking at facts. Which is what I did. You’re twisting it to suit your narrative. What are these one or two factors that are forming my perspective? Do tell.

 

 

[Toomers]

1 hour ago, MasterAwesome said:

Fair enough on the KB thing. I prefer to split up and judge each decision individually rather than come full circle and trace that decision through its entirety. That’s why I consider the KB trade as a huge win on its own merits, and then acknowledge that the Gaulden pick was seemingly a failure in its own rights. Or whatever we used KB’s pick on...not sure if it was Gaulden or not tbh.

I personally find it a bit nitpicky to criticize Hurney for not signing Reid earlier. I think we were probably relatively happy with our safety position in the summer with Searcy/Adams and Gaulden in the wings, but some extenuating circumstances had our safety situation become very dire very quickly. It would’ve been ideal for us to sign him earlier for sure, but I imagine that signing him a bit later in the season contributed to us getting him at such a bargain...purely speculative though, I admit. But ultimately Hurney did make the call to sign Reid which I credit him for. This is kind of the same argument with people criticizing Rivera for demoting Washington too late in the season, even though the demotion itself was the right move but a tough call IMO. I’m not in agreement that he “waited too long” given those particular circumstances, but that’s for a separate debate.

Well. I don’t see how you can look at it like that and claim a huge win. Surely not some slam dunk genius move. Yes it was Gaulden. 

 And us starting the season with Adams/Searcy at S was even more of a reason why he should have been signed. It wasn’t going to be much more money. And he starts day one instead of missing time. This issue stands alone. Not like any other issue. If he was good in September, he was good in July. Did his balls drop over two months?