I am sorry but James Borrego sucks.

[GeorgeHanson]

3 hours ago, Thelt said:

Cliff could win the NBA championship with the Magic this year after sneaking in as the #8 seed in the east and it would not change the fact that he failed in Charlotte.  Sure he had more success than previous coaches of the Bobcats era Hornets but that is not saying much.  He is the only coach to have a player like Kemba to work with.  Kemba was still developing with previous coaches but Cliff got him at his best.

JB might end up being a bad coach and may fail in Charlotte too.  That has nothing to do with Cliff being a failure here.  His record was 196-214, that is a failure in my book.

Context my man, context.

How do you feel Michael Jordan is doing as an owner?

The real truth is 196-214 is a smashing success when you factor in who the owner is.

[GeorgeHanson]

36 minutes ago, Thelt said:

He is better than George Shinn......

To quote John McEnroe...

...YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS?!?!

On what do you base that statement?  It's certainly not rooted in on-court results.

[GeorgeHanson]

3 hours ago, bull123 said:

Jordan made a big mistake hiring Cho 

outside of that he is a good owner, and it’s great that we have him 

Agreed on Cho.

Disagree that he's a "good owner".  He might be popular with a lot of folks because he played at Carolina and was a great player and won 6 rings, etc....

.....but he's an awful owner.  Completely unqualified for the job, and it shows.

[GeorgeHanson]

5 hours ago, Thelt said:

MJ has never been to cheap to retain talent.  He just has not had much luck finding talent.  Shinn was too cheap to pay Zo so what could have been a championship roster fell apart. 

What has MJ done so wrong in your estimation?  Its the GM's job to find talent and the coaches job to get the most out of it.  The owner's job is to fund the team.  I don't recall us losing out on a player we wanted to keep because MJ was too cheap.

Question, do you consider coaches to be "talent"?

In your opinion how important is it to have a great coach?

Lastly, the ol' win-loss record.....

...do you consider the ol win-loss record to be a good yardstick for evaluating owners?  (clearly you do on coaches, based on your previous posts)

PS....if you don't understand that Air Train Wreck is leading the "finding talent" parade, well, you are kidding yourself.  There is no separation of church & state with Ol' Train Wreck's Bobcats....

[GeorgeHanson]

3 hours ago, Thelt said:

The only way win loss record is on the owner is if he lets talent walk away like Shinn did.  Owners are not expected to be able to evaluate talent other than when hiring the GM.  Certainly coaches have a great deal to do with the win loss record but probably not as much as the GM does.  Talent is more important than coaching in the NBA. 

I am sure MJ gets involved to some degree more than he should.  I think that has become less over time.  MJ is not a good GM, he has proven that, but as an owner he has ponied up the money when it was smart to do so and sometimes even when it was not.  He spent a lot of money in the summer of 2016.  It did not pan out but you can say MJ was too cheap to pay for players.

My biggest problem with Cliff is that he will not adapt to the modern game.  He still wants to score points by feeding the big man in the paint.  That is why Vucevic is having such a good year in Orlando and why Howard put up good numbers here last year.  That does not translate to a lot of wins any more though.  It is just not as efficient as having lots of good shooters.  The three point shot makes his old Dean Smith style ineffective.  I am confident that the team traded for Dwight Howard because Cliff wanted him. 

You're kidding yourself about Air Train Wreck's level of involvement as it goes to "talent" --- he is the GM, Cho & Kupchak are assistant GM's. Ol' Trainer micromanages everything.

OK, answer me this....why did Jordan hire Dunlap and Clifford instead of Nate McMillan who was available at both times?

As for Shinn....if you like winning, he was a FANTASTIC owner!  (at least relative to every other professional sports team owner in the history of Charlotte....Shinn is a giant amongst midgets vs. Richardson, Johnson, Jordan)

In a 9-year time frame from 1992 to 2001 (excludes lockout season of '98-'99) the team had a winning record in 7-years and went 41-41 the other 2 years.  Shinn's teams won more then 40 games every one of those 9-years, and won 49 or more games 4 times, 50 or more games 3 times.

In that period of time the Hornets went to the playoffs 7 times, played in 11 playoffs series, and won 4 playoff series.  In that period of time the team played 48 total playoffs games.

If we give Ol' Trainer a pass on the first 3-years of his miserable reign, in the ensuing 9-years his Bobcats have posted a paltry 3 winning seasons and only won more than 44 games once, never had a 50 win season.  Made the playoffs 3 times, never won a playoff series, and only played a grand total of 15 playoff games.  Also, keep in mind this total is inflated by about 4-games as Shinn's teams were playing 1st round series that were best-of-5 (so apples-to-apples the Hornets prob would have played close to 60 playoff games). 

Shinn's teams won, and won regularly....the Hornets were winning at a 57% clip in that time frame....Air Train Wreck's Bobcats have lost 58% of the time.

If you think Jordan is a better owner then Shinn it can only be chalked up to either (i) you have some sort of personal animus toward George Shinn, or, (ii) you have fallen into a hero worship mode with Michael Jordan like many folks do.... (or a combination of both)

 

[GeorgeHanson]

5 hours ago, Thelt said:

I do not judge ownership on win loss record.  If Jordan had drafted Alonzo Mourning he would not have traded him rather than pay him market rate.  Shinn got lucky in the draft lottery and in the actual draft. 

Richardson had more success than Shinn if you want to judge it that way.  His team went to two superbowls.  The Hornets have never sniffed the finals even under Shinn.

Too funny.

If a blind taste test was done and you were presented with those two track records you'd pick the loser huh?

So why did Air Train Wreck hire Dunlap and Clifford instead of a proven coach like Nate McMillan?

You say the GM, not the owner, is in charge of "talent"...yet you want to hold Shinn singularly responsible for getting traded....can't have it both ways pal.

The Hornets went to the playoffs 5 straight seasons after Alonso was gone...clearly the whole thing didn't hinge on him....the Heat's record was very similar with Alonzo.  Your Mourning thesis (pun intended) has no merit.

In 24 years the Panthers have had 7 winning seasons and have never had back-to-back winning seasons --- that sucks donkey dong.  Shinn was a better owner than Ol' Jer' by a magnitude of at least 8x....

 

[djp14]

Sad thing is, we could've afforded to keep Zo, if Shinn hadn't given LJ that ridiculous contract extension.

[GeorgeHanson]

42 minutes ago, Thelt said:

Alonzo was only traded when it became apparent that Shinn was not willing to pay him market rate to stay.   The owner is the problem in those situations. 

I will take going to the superbowl twice and going to the conference championship game a couple of other times over making the playoffs and losing in the first round any time.  Shinn's hornets rarely got past the first round and never got to the eastern conference finals let alone the NBA finals.

I'm sensing some hero-worship with Alonzo to go along with Ol' Trainer.

Shinn's track record of consistently winning far outpaces that of Jerry Richardson.  I don't think you are capable of rationally analyzing the situation in an unemotional way due to some kind of personal animus you have for Mr. Shinn.  Is it because he dumped Alonzo?  Do you feel the same way about Jerry Richardson as it relates to Julius Peppers?

[GeorgeHanson]

43 minutes ago, djp14 said:

Sad thing is, we could've afforded to keep Zo, if Shinn hadn't given LJ that ridiculous contract extension.

Dave Twardzik was the GM who signed LJ to that contract. 

I don't understand how with the Bobcats everything is "Cho's fault" but with the Hornets you guys want to blame everything on Shinn.  

A convenient double standard being exhibited here...

[djp14]

20 minutes ago, GeorgeHanson said:

Dave Twardzik was the GM who signed LJ to that contract. 

I don't understand how with the Bobcats everything is "Cho's fault" but with the Hornets you guys want to blame everything on Shinn.  

A convenient double standard being exhibited here...

So Twardzik signed LJ to the richest contract in NBA history, and Shinn had nothing to do with it?  See Shinn's quote below: 

Quote

"I called owners throughout the league, and I even called the commissioner, David Stern," Hornet owner George Shinn said. "The bottom line is that if you're going to win, you've got to pay the freight. We had to get numbers we could live with and make Larry happy."

As far as blaming everything on Cho, bark up another tree, because I'm not one of those guys. I've called out MJ for being a meddling owner in other threads.

Shinn got run out of 2 cities. 'Nuff said.

[GeorgeHanson]

7 hours ago, djp14 said:

So Twardzik signed LJ to the richest contract in NBA history, and Shinn had nothing to do with it?  See Shinn's quote below: 

As far as blaming everything on Cho, bark up another tree, because I'm not one of those guys. I've called out MJ for being a meddling owner in other threads.

Shinn got run out of 2 cities. 'Nuff said.

Of course Shinn made the final call on that....just like Air Train Wreck made the calls on Batum, and Ol' Fumblerooski (Biyombo), and Kwame, and Vonleh, and MKG, etc....

Folks need to understand the buck stops with the owner, period (even when it's not convenient for the hero worshipers).

Shinn left Charlotte on his own accord....once in New Orleans he did kinda go off the deep end and run that team into the ground....but his record in Charlotte is unsurpassed.

[GeorgeHanson]

5 hours ago, Thelt said:

So you prefer to make the playoffs and losing in the first round to making the playoffs less often but actually making it to the finals? 

Shinn's Charlotte Hornets won first round playoff series on 4 different occasions.... #FakeNews on your part.  (oh wait, were you describing Ol' Trainers Bobcats when speaking of the 1st round losses?)

Yes, winning seasons 7 out of 9 years (with NO losing seasons) appeals to me a lot more than winning seasons 7 out of 24 years.....for sure.

[GeorgeHanson]

5 hours ago, Thelt said:

LJ might have been worth it if not for his back injury.  Shinn could have stepped up and paid Alonzo if he wanted to.  You do not let a hall of fame player leave in his prime. 

If Air Train Wreck lets Kemba leave what will your reaction be?

[djp14]

As an aside, all this Shinn talk reminds me of what a great GM Bob Bass was, especially working within Shinn's budget. When it was time to deal Mourning, he got a pretty decent haul from Miami. And when it was time for Glen Rice to go, he managed to come up with Eddie Jones. Not to mention flipping a diminished LJ for Anthony Mason. 

Bob Bass might have traded Kobe Bryant, but he did so much more with Charlotte Hornets