Mike Adams is not ready to hang up his cleats.

[Jeremy Igo]

8 minutes ago, rhyslloyd said:

Did you see Gaulden?  He's absolutely pathetic.  We don't have anyone on the roster who can replace Adams, currently.

To be fair, he was mostly a nickel trying to learn a new position at the pro level.

Another offseason and training camp could make it click for him. Hopefully so, he has the physical tools.

[panthers55]

5 minutes ago, Jeremy Igo said:

Head coaches are notoriously awful at drafting and don't have much input when it is all said and done.

Hurney and his scouts have 90% say on who is chosen. The coaches inform the GM on their needs and where the offense and defense is headed. The GM and scouts run with it from there.

That is true for Rivera especially under Gettleman. Hurney seems a little more inclusive given talent eval isn't his biggest forte. 

[Jeremy Igo]

3 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

That is true for Rivera especially under Gettleman. Hurney seems a little more inclusive given talent eval isn't his biggest forte. 

Not sure where you got that idea. Hurney is very proud of his ability to find talent. He thinks of himself as a scout.

[panthers55]

3 minutes ago, Jeremy Igo said:

Not sure where you got that idea. Hurney is very proud of his ability to find talent. He thinks of himself as a scout.

Not nearly as much as Gettleman did. I guess it is a matter of degree.

[Jeremy Igo]

2 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

Not nearly as much as Gettleman did. I guess it is a matter of degree.

I'd say it is equal. Gettleman just had a better grasp of the salary cap and what it takes to keep a team young and competitive. Something he got fired for.

[panthers55]

4 minutes ago, Jeremy Igo said:

I'd say it is equal. Gettleman just had a better grasp of the salary cap and what it takes to keep a team young and competitive. Something he got fired for.

And I thought is was due to fomenting conflict, pissing everyone off and refusing to do what his boss told him to do.

[MHS831]

8 hours ago, panthers55 said:

From what I could tell for the vast majority of RRs tenure Gettleman did most of the picking not Rivera. Sure he said it was a team decision but let's be real here. Gettleman ran the show and fancied himself a great talent evaluator. Your complaints about the misses are more of an indictment of the scouting staff and Gettleman not Rivera. If you want to complain about Rivera complain about how he used what he got not who we drafted. Now Hurney and Rivera have more of a cooperative relationship 

You are talking out both sides of your mouth.  This is not the first time you have claimed to "get real" when we both know what we both actually know. 

I know that the head coach has input.  I know his word carries the most weight, according to Gettlemen, the picks were a collective decision that involved Rivera, position coaches, and the scouts, but he realized the ultimate decision was the GMs--as it should be.  https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/calls-shots-32-nfl-draft-rooms/story?id=38481907

So when you say, "Gettlemen ran the show and fancied himself to be a great talent evaluator" you quickly assume that is a fact and build your argument on that premise.  Here are facts.  If RR is a great evaluator of talent on D, then why would Gettlemen not listen to him?  The next point you make is that RR and Marty are better at communicating (cooperative relationship), suggesting that RR had more input and MH tapped into his defensive personnel expertise when they drafted together.

Let's take a look.  They had the 2011, 2012, and the 2018 drafts together.  As I mentioned before this exercise, RR has not been a steward for drafting DL talent--but KK Short and Star were under the autocratic Gettlemen, so they don't count. Perhaps this is better when cooperating with Marty. Let's see:

Defensive players drafted during the Rivera/Hurney drafts:

• 2011: DTs Terrell McLain, Sione Fua; DB Brandon Hogan; LB Lawrence Wilson  (pretty bad)

• 2012: LB Luke Kuechly, (This was the Amini draft—a player RR wanted), DE Frank Alexander, CB Josh Norman.  (I said RR knows LBs and does not get the DL positions—Norman was a great pick, but RR kept him in the doghouse for a long period of time).

• 2018:  CB Donte Jackson, S Rashaan Gaulden, DE Marquis Haynes, LB Jermaine Carter, LB Andre Smith, DT Kendrick Norton.  (Jackson is a player we know RR wanted.  Gaulden is unproven, Haynes and Norton never did anything, and then there were 2 LBs—Rivera’s area.  They are doing fine.

So IF RR is a defensive personnel expert and he was able to influence Hurney more than Gettlemen, then this is reality.

• LB:  Wilson, Kuechly, Carter and Smith.  Good value, except Wilson, who loved weed.  Luke was his best pick, and he is a LB--like Rivera.

• DB: Hogan, Norman, Jackson, Gaulden.  Two are excellent, one was not much and the other unproven.  Not bad if you consider where each was drafted.

• DL: McLain, Fua, Alexander, Haynes, Norton.  Nothing short of a train wreck.  And it was better with Gettlemen.

You then move the goal posts in your attempt to examine reality:  "If you want to complain about Rivera complain about how he used what he got not who we drafted."

 You called him a defensive personnel expert and since he is the head coach and has (and always did) a voice in who we draft and how he used them--I just do not see the evidence to support your reality.  He has been with Marty Hurney and drafted 13 defensive players---3 are successful (Luke, Jackson, and Norman). It is his job to make them successful.  Heck, Norman basically had one solid year here.  Gaulden?  Nothing proven.  Did he have to coach Luke up?  Doubtful his influence mattered.  Jackson?  Raw talent.  This defensive personnel expert either cannot get the respect of the GM or has some serious blind spots (DL) when his voice is heard.

Now that is reality.

 

[PanthersBigD]

I look at this and the Kalil article as the Panthers just keeping their names out there for them. Nothing wrong with letting them state their cases to the NFL at large, to maybe drum up a little interest. If they keep Adams and Kalil past June 1, then I'll be worried. 

[panthers55]

1 hour ago, MHS831 said:

You are talking out both sides of your mouth.  This is not the first time you have claimed to "get real" when we both know what we both actually know. 

I know that the head coach has input.  I know his word carries the most weight, according to Gettlemen, the picks were a collective decision that involved Rivera, position coaches, and the scouts, but he realized the ultimate decision was the GMs--as it should be.  https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/calls-shots-32-nfl-draft-rooms/story?id=38481907

So when you say, "Gettlemen ran the show and fancied himself to be a great talent evaluator" you quickly assume that is a fact and build your argument on that premise.  Here are facts.  If RR is a great evaluator of talent on D, then why would Gettlemen not listen to him?  The next point you make is that RR and Marty are better at communicating (cooperative relationship), suggesting that RR had more input and MH tapped into his defensive personnel expertise when they drafted together.

Let's take a look.  They had the 2011, 2012, and the 2018 drafts together.  As I mentioned before this exercise, RR has not been a steward for drafting DL talent--but KK Short and Star were under the autocratic Gettlemen, so they don't count. Perhaps this is better when cooperating with Marty. Let's see:

Defensive players drafted during the Rivera/Hurney drafts:

 

• 2011: DTs Terrell McLain, Sione Fua; DB Brandon Hogan; LB Lawrence Wilson  (pretty bad)

   

• 2012: LB Luke Kuechly, (This was the Amini draft—a player RR wanted), DE Frank Alexander, CB Josh Norman.  (I said RR knows LBs and does not get the DL positions—Norman was a great pick, but RR kept him in the doghouse for a long period of time).

   

• 2018:  CB Donte Jackson, S Rashaan Gaulden, DE Marquis Haynes, LB Jermaine Carter, LB Andre Smith, DT Kendrick Norton.  (Jackson is a player we know RR wanted.  Gaulden is unproven, Haynes and Norton never did anything, and then there were 2 LBs—Rivera’s area.  They are doing fine.

   

So IF RR is a defensive personnel expert and he was able to influence Hurney more than Gettlemen, then this is reality.

 

• LB:  Wilson, Kuechly, Carter and Smith.  Good value, except Wilson, who loved weed.  Luke was his best pick, and he is a LB--like Rivera.

   

• DB: Hogan, Norman, Jackson, Gaulden.  Two are excellent, one was not much and the other unproven.  Not bad if you consider where each was drafted.

   

• DL: McLain, Fua, Alexander, Haynes, Norton.  Nothing short of a train wreck.  And it was better with Gettlemen.

 

 

You then move the goal posts in your attempt to examine reality:  "If you want to complain about Rivera complain about how he used what he got not who we drafted."

 You called him a defensive personnel expert and since he is the head coach and has (and always did) a voice in who we draft and how he used them--I just do not see the evidence to support your reality.  He has been with Marty Hurney and drafted 13 defensive players---3 are successful (Luke, Jackson, and Norman). It is his job to make them successful.  Heck, Norman basically had one solid year here.  Gaulden?  Nothing proven.  Did he have to coach Luke up?  Doubtful his influence mattered.  Jackson?  Raw talent.  This defensive personnel expert either cannot get the respect of the GM or has some serious blind spots (DL) when his voice is heard.

Now that is reality.

 

One version of reality with heavy opinion on your part. But good post about Hurney and Rivera. You assume a bunch of things. You assume all Hurney's picks were Rivera choices and that he had the same relationship in 2011 for example as a rookie head coach with an established GM as he would in 2018 when Rivera was established and Hurney is the new old guy atoning for his mistakes. You assume we had the same scouting department for this tenure which we clearly didn't. And you assume the head coach had the most input and that is not always the case.  And you totally ignored all of the Gettleman defensive picks good or bad for context. Sure Gettleman was the last say but did Rivera have input into specific players or what types of players he wanted. Who made the board and where everything was positioned  on draft day?  And let's be clear. Guys with talent can still bust. What team hits on most of their picks after the second round. Most of the guys outside of Kuechly and Jackson were third rounders or worse.

Here is an article breaking out the % of success or busts per round by position. 

https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2015/2/20/8072877/what-the-statistics-tell-us-about-the-draft-by-round

Note in the third round for defensive linemen the success rate was 37%. And success is defined by becoming a starter. So by that standard both McClain and Fua were part of the 37% success rate.

The facts are the facts but how you interpret them is what truly matters. Good work on the research but your analysis in my mind is skewed to prove what you already believe which is putting the cart before the horse and often leads to faulty but predictable outcomes 

[Peppers90 NC]

At least last year he made some plays and forced some turnovers. This year, he seemed invisible.