Changing the Narrative, Vol. 1: #9 vs. #16

[SCMunnerlyn1]

29 minutes ago, falconidae said:

Again, if the the earlier picks are so valuable, why didn't any of the non-playoff teams try to lose the last game?

Can't answer for other teams. Is just my opinion. I'd rather start at 9 and go back to 16 by way of trade to get more picks if i had a team with a lot of aging players.  Lets say for example if everybody has their original picks and im trading with the 16 slot. Ill swap my 1,3,5 for your 1,3,4. Its nothing crazy but a team that really wants that pick may be willing to do all kinds of things far more extreme than that. The higher the picks you have the more options you have. If a player starts slipping for instance a MLB (we obviously have a great one) 16 slot may say oh hell no slot 10 needs one too andgod damn it i want that one..boom thats when you take a team to the woodshed. 

[Lasus83.]

On ‎1‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 12:42 PM, Icege said:

Throughout the final game of the season, a thorough shallacking of the division rival (and champion) Saints, many Huddlers bemoaned the impending victory. Ron Rivera's intelligence was questioned (albeit not exclusively due to this game), fans threw their hands up in despair, and everything came down to whether or not David Tepper would mirror their emotional instability. Not being able to pick at #9, the highest possible position the team could have selected from after week 17, but instead at #16 meant that the team was doomed to miss out on a top tier prospect.

Nevermind that the draft is a crapshoot and that the team is far and away from one player making the difference between a Super Bowl and another losing season. Let's analyze that sentiment. First and foremost, these same users have made it abundantly clear that a draft class is a complete and total failure without at least 3 "successful" picks. I think that seeing that number on paper, even the most belligerent would be willing to admit that just getting two players out of the draft would be great. With the first two rounds being the "easiest" to nail a pick in, let us look at the draft results from the last ten years.

The tables below shows the players selected at #9, #16, #40, and #47 as these are where Carolina is picking as well as would have picked should the team had lost on Sunday. Also included are the Panthers 1st and 2nd round picks.
 

Year #9 #16 2018 Mike McGlinchey, OT, Notre Dame (SF) Tremaine Edmunds, LB, Virginia Tech (BUF) 2017 John Ross, WR, Washington (CIN) Marlon Humphrey, CB, Alabama (BAL) 2016 Leonard Floyd, EDGE, UGA (CHI) Taylor Decker, OT, Ohio St (DET) 2015 Ereck Flowers, OT, Miami (NYG) Kevin Johnson, CB, Wake Forest (HOU) 2014 Anthony Barr, LB, UCLA (MIN) Zack Martin, G, Notre Dame (DAL) 2013 Dee Milliner, CB, Alabama (NYJ) EJ Manuel, QB, Florida St (BUF) 2012 Luke Kuechly, LB, Boston College (CAR) Quinton Coples, DE, North Carolina (NYJ) 2011 Tyron Smith, OT, USC (DAL) Ryan Kerrigan, DE, Purdue (WAS) 2010 CJ Spiller, RB, Clemson (BUF) Derrick Morgan, DE, Georgia Tech (TEN) 2009 BJ Raji, DT, Boston College (GB) Larry English, DE, NIU (SD)       Year #40 #47 2018 Courtland Sutton, WR, SMU (DEN) Christian Kirk, WR, Texas A&M (ARI) 2017 Curtis Samuel, WR, Ohio St (CAR) Tyus Bowser, LB, Houston (BAL) 2016 Sterling Shepard, WR, Oklahoma (NYG) Michael Thomas, WR, Ohio St (NO) 2015 Dorial Green-Beckham, WR, Missouri (TEN) Eric Rowe, CB, Utah (PHI) 2014 Kyle Van Noy, LB, BYU (DET) Trent Murphy, LB, Stanford (WAS) 2013 Tank Carradine, DE, Florida St (SF) Kiko Alonso, LB, Oregon (BUF) 2012 Amini Silatolu, G, Midwestern St (CAR) Bobby Wagner, LB, Utah St (SEA) 2011 Bruce Carter, LB, North Carolina (DAL) Lance Kendricks, TE, Wisconsin (STL) 2010 Koa Misi, DE, Utah (MIA) Daryl Washington, LB, TCU, ARI 2009 Ron Bace, DT, Boston College (NE) Mike Mitchell, S, Ohio (OAK)       Year Carolina 1st Carolina 2nd 2018 DJ Moore (#24) Donte Jackson (#55) 2017 Christian McCaffrey (#8) Curtis Samuel (#40), Taylor Moton (#64) 2016 Vernon Butler (#30) James Bradberry (#62) 2015 Shaq Thompson (#26) Devin Funchess (#41) 2014 Kelvin Benjamin (#28) Kony Ealy (#60) 2013 Star Lotulelei (#14) Kawann Short (#44) 2012 Luke Kuechly (#9) Amini Silatolu (#40) 2011 Cam Newton (#1) None 2010 None Jimmy Clausen (#48) 2009 None Everette Brown (#43), Sherrod Martin (#59)

Looking at the first round, #9 and #16 are tied at 6-6. In the 2nd round, #40 & #47, #47 has been far and away much more successful of a spot to pick at. What I also find interesting is the breakdown in Carolina's draft picks. Looking at Gettleman's picks, his busts still produced at some level (with the exception of Vernon Butler). Hurney's picks, on the other hand, are feast or famine. We either get the greatness of Cam and Luke, or we get the likes of Jimmy Clausen, Everette Brown, and Sherrod Martin with our 2nd round picks because we've traded away the first rounders for the likes of Jeff Otah and the aforementioned Everette Brown. While Kony Ealy busted despite an MVP-esque Super Bowl and Funchess has never played to his size, Bradberry, KK (with the exception of this past season), Samuel, and Moton have all been great picks. Hurney did knock it out of the park with Donte Jackson, but that 4 year run of Silatolu, Clausen, Brown, and Martin make me want to vomit.

To note, the first pick of the 3rd round (#65) in 2011 for the Panthers was Terrell McClain, Igo's Pro Bowler prediction. You can add him to the list of Hurney second selection busts.

TLDR; 
1) Hurney is either going to pick somebody amazing or somebody that will have Gettleman haters wishing for the return of the fupa. 
2) 9th vs 16th doesn't matter while picking 47th in the last decade has worked out better than those picking at #40.
3) Huddlers that were belittling other fans for wanting to win were the real losers on Sunday.

You get pie for the thought put out in this post, the structure and the TLDR section.

 

However, your sample makes an assumption about the whole and it is erroneous.  Are you generally willing to stake your claim that later picks are better ones? Or, for a lesser position, that the difference is not significant enough to really be important?  Because I think that is a tough sell.

There may be an argument that teams picking later pick better because they have better management... a causal relationship.  However, the idea that there is no difference between the #9 and #16 pick, in any round, is in too much of a vacuum. 

In the end, meaningless games are meaningless.

Earlier picks are worth more.

Better players go earlier.

and...

Opinions are tough to change.

[Lasus83.]

Of course, I believe in finding truth above winning an argument.  I did a quick google search of 'scatter plot of pro-bowlers vs. pick position' and quickly stumbled upon the below:

Link - https://www.derp/2018/5/16/17359772/what-draft-position-tells-us-finding-pro-bowlers-regular-contributors

I remain open to being convinced, though, that the game had any real meaning.  Our 'collateral' to move up was reduced in the devaluation of our picks. That is, it is clear that picks in the top 100 are of significance.  We now have less ability to achieve the maximum number of selections in that range.

[Lasus83.]

So, in taking a look at the past 5 drafts I noticed a few different trends.  This data is players that made the pro-bowl for the past 5 years supplied by Wikipedia. 

- For immediate impact, your success rate is dramatically higher when drafting in the top 10 picks. 

- Players taken 11-32 begin to pick up steam 2-3 years out and have really hit their stride in years 3-5.

- Top 100 picks are at a premium and represent almost 80% of the pro-bowlers selected in the last 5 years.

2017
1	1	1	Cleveland Browns	Myles Garrett †	DE	11 Pro Bowlers
	1	6	New York Jets	Jamal Adams †	S	4 in top 11	36%
	1	10	Kansas City Chiefs	Patrick Mahomes †	QB	7 in top 100	64%
	1	11	New Orleans Saints	Marshon Lattimore †	CB
	2	36	Arizona Cardinals	Budda Baker †	S
	3	67	New Orleans Saints	Alvin Kamara †	RB
	3	86	Kansas City Chiefs	Kareem Hunt †	RB
	3*	105	Pittsburgh Steelers	James Conner †	RB
	4	112	Chicago Bears	Eddie Jackson †	S
	4	119	Chicago Bears	Tarik Cohen †	RB
	5	146	San Francisco 49ers	George Kittle †	TE
2016
1	1	1	Los Angeles Rams	Jared Goff †	QB	16 Pro Bowlers
	1	2	Philadelphia Eagles	Carson Wentz †	QB	5 in top 10	31%
	1	3	San Diego Chargers	Joey Bosa †	DE	12 in top 100	75%
	1	4	Dallas Cowboys	Ezekiel Elliott †	RB
	1	5	Jacksonville Jaguars	Jalen Ramsey †	CB
	1	17	Atlanta Falcons	Keanu Neal †	S
	2	38	Miami Dolphins	Xavien Howard †	CB
	2	47	New Orleans Saints	Michael Thomas †	WR
	2	52	Atlanta Falcons	Deion Jones †	LB
	3	64	Tennessee Titans	Kevin Byard †	S
	3	69	Jacksonville Jaguars	Yannick Ngakoue †	DE
	4	99	Cleveland Browns	Joe Schobert †	LB
	4	117	Los Angeles Rams	Pharoh Cooper †	WR
	4*	135	Dallas Cowboys	Dak Prescott †	QB
	5	150	Chicago Bears	Jordan Howard †	RB
	5	165	Kansas City Chiefs	Tyreek Hill †	WR
2015
1	1	1	Tampa Bay Buccaneers	Jameis Winston †	QB	16 Pro Bowlers
	1	4	Oakland Raiders	Amari Cooper †	WR	6 in top 10	38%
	1	5	Washington Redskins	Brandon Scherff †	OT	13 in top 100	81%
	1	6	New York Jets	Leonard Williams †	DE
	1	8	Atlanta Falcons	Vic Beasley †	DE
	1	10	St. Louis Rams	Todd Gurley †	RB
	1	15	San Diego Chargers	Melvin Gordon †	RB
	1	18	Kansas City Chiefs	Marcus Peters †	CB
	2	33	New York Giants	Landon Collins †	S
	2	43	Houston Texans	Benardrick McKinney †	LB
	3	69	Seattle Seahawks	Tyler Lockett †	WR
	3	86	Arizona Cardinals	David Johnson †	RB
	3	88	Minnesota Vikings	Danielle Hunter †	DE
	4	124	Tampa Bay Buccaneers	Kwon Alexander †	LB
	5	149	Miami Dolphins	Jay Ajayi †	RB
	5*	172	Kansas City Chiefs	D. J. Alexander †	LB
2014
1	1	1	Houston Texans	Jadeveon Clowney †	DE	21 pro bowlers
	1	5	Oakland Raiders	Khalil Mack †	LB	5 in top 10	24%
	1	7	Tampa Bay Buccaneers	Mike Evans †	WR	8 in 11-32	38%
	1	9	Minnesota Vikings	Anthony Barr †	LB	19 in top 100	90%
	1	10	Detroit Lions	Eric Ebron †	TE
	1	11	Tennessee Titans	Taylor Lewan †	OT
	1	12	New York Giants	Odell Beckham †	WR
	1	13	St. Louis Rams	Aaron Donald †	DT
	1	14	Chicago Bears	Kyle Fuller †	CB
	1	15	Pittsburgh Steelers	Ryan Shazier †	LB
	1	16	Dallas Cowboys	Zack Martin †	G
	1	17	Baltimore Ravens	C. J. Mosley †	LB
	1	32	Minnesota Vikings	Teddy Bridgewater †	QB
	2	34	Dallas Cowboys	DeMarcus Lawrence †	DE
	2	36	Oakland Raiders	Derek Carr †	QB
	2	53	Green Bay Packers	Davante Adams †	WR
	2	61	Jacksonville Jaguars	Allen Robinson †	WR
	2	63	Miami Dolphins	Jarvis Landry †	WR
	3	92	Carolina Panthers	Trai Turner †	G
	4	103	Atlanta Falcons	Devonta Freeman †	RB
	5	144	Jacksonville Jaguars	Telvin Smith †	LB
2013
1	1	1	Kansas City Chiefs	Eric Fisher †	OT	28 pro bowlers
	1	4	Philadelphia Eagles	Lane Johnson †	OT	3 in top 10	11%
	1	5	Detroit Lions	Ezekiel Ansah †	DE	9 in 11-32	32%
	1	13	New York Jets	Sheldon Richardson †	DT	24 in top 100	86%
	1	18	San Francisco 49ers	Eric Reid †	S
	1	20	Chicago Bears	Kyle Long †	G
	1	21	Cincinnati Bengals	Tyler Eifert †	TE
	1	22	Atlanta Falcons	Desmond Trufant †	CB
	1	25	Minnesota Vikings	Xavier Rhodes †	CB
	1	27	Houston Texans	DeAndre Hopkins †	WR
	1	29	Minnesota Vikings	Cordarrelle Patterson †	WR
	1	31	Dallas Cowboys	Travis Frederick †	C
	2	35	Philadelphia Eagles	Zach Ertz †	TE
	2	36	Detroit Lions	Darius Slay †	CB
	2	44	Carolina Panthers	Kawann Short †	DT
	2	48	Pittsburgh Steelers	Le'Veon Bell †	RB
	2	52	New England Patriots	Jamie Collins †	LB
	2	61	Green Bay Packers	Eddie Lacy †	RB
	3	63	Kansas City Chiefs	Travis Kelce †	TE
	3	65	Detroit Lions	Larry Warford †	G
	3	69	Arizona Cardinals	Tyrann Mathieu †	CB
	3	75	New Orleans Saints	Terron Armstead †	OT
	3	76	San Diego Chargers	Keenan Allen †	WR
	3	85	Washington Redskins	Jordan Reed †	TE
	4	109	Green Bay Packers	David Bakhtiari †	OT
	4*	130	Baltimore Ravens	Kyle Juszczyk †	FB
	5	159	Green Bay Packers	Micah Hyde †	CB
	6	181	Oakland Raiders	Latavius Murray †	RB

 

[falconidae]

2 hours ago, SCMunnerlyn1 said:

Can't answer for other teams. Is just my opinion. I'd rather start at 9 and go back to 16 by way of trade to get more picks if i had a team with a lot of aging players.  Lets say for example if everybody has their original picks and im trading with the 16 slot. Ill swap my 1,3,5 for your 1,3,4. Its nothing crazy but a team that really wants that pick may be willing to do all kinds of things far more extreme than that. The higher the picks you have the more options you have. If a player starts slipping for instance a MLB (we obviously have a great one) 16 slot may say oh hell no slot 10 needs one too andgod damn it i want that one..boom thats when you take a team to the woodshed. 

You didn't answer the question. If the earlier picks were so valuable, why didn't one single team tank the final game?

[SCMunnerlyn1]

4 minutes ago, falconidae said:

You didn't answer the question. If the earlier picks were so valuable, why didn't one single team tank the final game?

I literally answered it in my first sentence. "I can't speak for other teams. This is my opinion"  All I can tell you is what I would've done. I likely would've run the ball all game long and coasted till the end and taken my better draft pick to make dealings easier for the draft. Again just my opinion. For all we know that could be considered taboo by Goodell " Don't shave points or obviously tank the game and piss off our sponsors and yada yada yada"

[Icege]

2 hours ago, Lasus83. said:

Of course, I believe in finding truth above winning an argument.  I did a quick google search of 'scatter plot of pro-bowlers vs. pick position' and quickly stumbled upon the below:

Link - https://www.derp/2018/5/16/17359772/what-draft-position-tells-us-finding-pro-bowlers-regular-contributors

I remain open to being convinced, though, that the game had any real meaning.  Our 'collateral' to move up was reduced in the devaluation of our picks. That is, it is clear that picks in the top 100 are of significance.  We now have less ability to achieve the maximum number of selections in that range.

While folks here seem to be caught on the idea that thread is this saying that "#16 is the same as #9," that is far and away from what I am communicating.

The stance that I am presenting is that people reacting with vitriol towards the team and their fellow fans over the W is tremendously overblown. The difference in 7 picks in the top 20 is not going to be the difference between a successful season or a disappointing one for the Panthers next year. Rivera is an idiot for not putting people in position to succeed, not for trying to win a football game when losing meant that the team would have lost 5 in a row to NO and an unprecedented 8-loss finish to 6-10 in order for the team to pick 7 spots higher.

Looking at the players selected, along with players that the Panthers took when not picking from those spots, there is more than enough evidence to show that the team was not impacted as severely by the victory as made out by the rageaholics. To add, the draft is more than the first round and that 7 spot difference means even less.

A prospect's grade also does not necessarily reflect their abilities as much as it might their talent (good read here: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000679463/article/nfl-draft-why-traits-outweigh-production-in-grading-prospects).

I will never state that the #30 pick is more valuable than #1. I will, however, comfortably stand by the notion that the difference in prospects between 9 and 16 is minimal due to human error and lottery-esque results, and not worthy of the piss and vinegar that rained from the skies. Looking even further into the current situation with the team needing a pass rush and this class being DL heavy, we have even less reason to be concerned on that draft position.

[Lasus83.]

36 minutes ago, Icege said:

While folks here seem to be caught on the idea that thread is this saying that "#16 is the same as #9," that is far and away from what I am communicating.

The stance that I am presenting is that people reacting with vitriol towards the team and their fellow fans over the W is tremendously overblown. The difference in 7 picks in the top 20 is not going to be the difference between a successful season or a disappointing one for the Panthers next year. Rivera is an idiot for not putting people in position to succeed, not for trying to win a football game when losing meant that the team would have lost 5 in a row to NO and an unprecedented 8-loss finish to 6-10 in order for the team to pick 7 spots higher.

Looking at the players selected, along with players that the Panthers took when not picking from those spots, there is more than enough evidence to show that the team was not impacted as severely by the victory as made out by the rageaholics. To add, the draft is more than the first round and that 7 spot difference means even less.

A prospect's grade also does not necessarily reflect their abilities as much as it might their talent (good read here: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000679463/article/nfl-draft-why-traits-outweigh-production-in-grading-prospects).

I will never state that the #30 pick is more valuable than #1. I will, however, comfortably stand by the notion that the difference in prospects between 9 and 16 is minimal due to human error and lottery-esque results, and not worthy of the piss and vinegar that rained from the skies. Looking even further into the current situation with the team needing a pass rush and this class being DL heavy, we have even less reason to be concerned on that draft position.

2 things,

1. Vitriol - We are talking about a sport/team that has fans.  In the words of Colin Cowherd, 'fan' is short for 'fanatic'.  There are going to be fanatical, heated arguments even over the littlest things.  Sensibility exits when dealing with this kind of passion and especially with the propensity for it to be coupled with alcohol.  That is, think of this place as a bunch of 3 year olds and you'll sleep better.  I have a 3 year old.  I make a point not to argue with her because she will drag me down to her level and then beat me with experience.... wanna know how I know?  I've argued, and lost, more times than I would like to admit.

2. To the rest of your point - ...and I believe the root of the debate.  Is the anger over the drop in draft position warranted?  Well, insofar as anger will not change anything, no.  However, the drop is significant.  Maybe not singularly for round 1, but the value of the overall class is diminished.  You may have a crap shoot either way and it may be akin to the lottery, especially if you factor in the chances of injury or off the field issues, but the odds are better with higher picks.  In a vacuum, where we eliminate all of the aforementioned and have 'god' (for lack of a better example) pick the players, the players are better in the earlier rounds.  Please see my previous post on pro-bowlers.  Also, should you consider the picks commodities, the value of those selections is higher with #9 than #16 and that difference is very significant. 

We won a meaningless game and it means we are now driving a Mustang GT as opposed to a Mustang Shelby GT500.  The GT is nice, but boy that GT500 is a helluva lot nicer... and we are pissed because the wife made us buy the GT even though the GT500 only cost a little bit more. Hell, we were already losing... we had sorta grown used to it.  Now some good could come of it and we thought:  'what's one more game?'

[Icege]

2 hours ago, Lasus83. said:

2 things,

1. Vitriol - We are talking about a sport/team that has fans.  In the words of Colin Cowherd, 'fan' is short for 'fanatic'.  There are going to be fanatical, heated arguments even over the littlest things.  Sensibility exits when dealing with this kind of passion and especially with the propensity for it to be coupled with alcohol.  That is, think of this place as a bunch of 3 year olds and you'll sleep better.  I have a 3 year old.  I make a point not to argue with her because she will drag me down to her level and then beat me with experience.... wanna know how I know?  I've argued, and lost, more times than I would like to admit.

2. To the rest of your point - ...and I believe the root of the debate.  Is the anger over the drop in draft position warranted?  Well, insofar as anger will not change anything, no.  However, the drop is significant.  Maybe not singularly for round 1, but the value of the overall class is diminished.  You may have a crap shoot either way and it may be akin to the lottery, especially if you factor in the chances of injury or off the field issues, but the odds are better with higher picks.  In a vacuum, where we eliminate all of the aforementioned and have 'god' (for lack of a better example) pick the players, the players are better in the earlier rounds.  Please see my previous post on pro-bowlers.  Also, should you consider the picks commodities, the value of those selections is higher with #9 than #16 and that difference is very significant. 

We won a meaningless game and it means we are now driving a Mustang GT as opposed to a Mustang Shelby GT500.  The GT is nice, but boy that GT500 is a helluva lot nicer... and we are pissed because the wife made us buy the GT even though the GT500 only cost a little bit more. Hell, we were already losing... we had sorta grown used to it.  Now some good could come of it and we thought:  'what's one more game?'

Note: Posting from the throne and having a bitch of a time moving back and forth from text field to quote (the dark theme giveth and the dark theme taketh) so this reply might be scatter brained. If not, woohoo!

1. I tend to gloss over most of the childish antics on the board as my own 3yr old shows more patience and understanding than some of the polarized and over-stimulated posters we have. While the heat of the moment certainly does explain their behaviour, it certainly does not excuse it. The schism from the final game was more contentious amongst posters than usual, to the point where folks were attacking one another relentlessly simply because somebody wanted to win rather than lose. While we see this every game day, the disappointment that was the season and rumours of Hurney/Rivera being retained drove a lot more folks a lot further.

On an unrelated note, I think those L's to your little one are from her innate feminine ability to somehow convince you that you were wrong when you said that the bathroom fan needs to be on (meanwhile, my son was convinced once he smelled the hate crime that I've committed in here). 

2. Higher pick would mean higher trade value, yes, but it does not necessarily create an immediate trade in the team's favor. In theory, it also means that we should have our pick of the litter, but as you mentioned there is no crystal ball that will tell us whether or not it will work out. The difference between 9 and 16, in this class imo, is the difference between buying a car with Waze on board rather than having to use the phone app. There are teams in front of Carolina that are trying to fill other areas aside from the DL. Call me crazy, but I dont see the 15 teams selecting before Carolina to all need a pass rusher. Some will, yea, and some will even take them based on value, but with the depth of the position group that impact is drastically reduced.

If we went from a top 5 pick to 16, ok, yea, be disappointed af.

Also, I know lots of folks have referenced the frequency of Pro Bowlers earlier in the draft. While this is true, it is not exactly a measurement that shows we should be frustrated at winning. It took TD forever to be recognized, and while CMC was the #8 pick he was not selected for the Pro Bowl this past season. The 2017 draft also had 3 Pro Bowlers in the 3rd rd, one less than the 1st rd and 2 more than the 2nd. The theory is there, yes, but not the reality. Therefore, Huddlers acting like this is something worth being an assclown over is ridiculous.

I completely lost my train of thought midway thru that last paragraph, but should I regain that stream of conscious I'll add. I appreciate the civilized back and forth!

 

[Lasus83.]

1 hour ago, Icege said:

Note: Posting from the throne and having a bitch of a time moving back and forth from text field to quote (the dark theme giveth and the dark theme taketh) so this reply might be scatter brained. If not, woohoo!

1. I tend to gloss over most of the childish antics on the board as my own 3yr old shows more patience and understanding than some of the polarized and over-stimulated posters we have. While the heat of the moment certainly does explain their behaviour, it certainly does not excuse it. The schism from the final game was more contentious amongst posters than usual, to the point where folks were attacking one another relentlessly simply because somebody wanted to win rather than lose. While we see this every game day, the disappointment that was the season and rumours of Hurney/Rivera being retained drove a lot more folks a lot further.

On an unrelated note, I think those L's to your little one are from her innate feminine ability to somehow convince you that you were wrong when you said that the bathroom fan needs to be on (meanwhile, my son was convinced once he smelled the hate crime that I've committed in here). 

2. Higher pick would mean higher trade value, yes, but it does not necessarily create an immediate trade in the team's favor. In theory, it also means that we should have our pick of the litter, but as you mentioned there is no crystal ball that will tell us whether or not it will work out. The difference between 9 and 16, in this class imo, is the difference between buying a car with Waze on board rather than having to use the phone app. There are teams in front of Carolina that are trying to fill other areas aside from the DL. Call me crazy, but I dont see the 15 teams selecting before Carolina to all need a pass rusher. Some will, yea, and some will even take them based on value, but with the depth of the position group that impact is drastically reduced.

If we went from a top 5 pick to 16, ok, yea, be disappointed af.

Also, I know lots of folks have referenced the frequency of Pro Bowlers earlier in the draft. While this is true, it is not exactly a measurement that shows we should be frustrated at winning. It took TD forever to be recognized, and while CMC was the #8 pick he was not selected for the Pro Bowl this past season. The 2017 draft also had 3 Pro Bowlers in the 3rd rd, one less than the 1st rd and 2 more than the 2nd. The theory is there, yes, but not the reality. Therefore, Huddlers acting like this is something worth being an assclown over is ridiculous.

I completely lost my train of thought midway thru that last paragraph, but should I regain that stream of conscious I'll add. I appreciate the civilized back and forth!

 

I concur on the civilized back and forth.

I suppose I defend the fanaticism because I sometimes fall victim to it. The investment, emotional and financial, that I have in this team is boarderline committment worthy. None of that is an acceptable excuse, as you say, and when level heads prevail apologies are often in order.

 

The point I am hung up on is that I saw no meaning in the win. We did not beat the Saints in any more way than we would have if the game was played in September. In september, I don't care about wins, I care about seeing young players and depth players. I care about starters getting in rythem. Even the latter was irrelevant in this game.

The only things at stake were pride and the draft pick. 

I like beating the saints just as much as anyone (except the falcons and maybe pats), but not at the potential cost.

 

I do concede your original point. The anger expressed towards one another was juvenile. 

Time to move on.

[Davidson Deac II]

On 1/2/2019 at 1:11 PM, stbugs said:

\I’d rather have 9 because there will be a higher bust % as the picks get higher and making a great pick at 16 is harder.

Personally, I would rather have pick #32, assuming it didn't come via trade. 

[panthers55]

Using historical picks to decide what success we will have makes little sense.  It isn't the position you pick as much as who is doing the picking. And honestly how long are we going to keep beating this dead horse. 

[Palmetto]

Fun hasn't started yet

just wait until 2 years if the Panthers draft a bust (Vernon Butler) and the guy(s) drafted at 9-15 and 17-19 is an All pro

watch the comments then

Got the feeling 9 VS 16 is going to be a thread topic for a long time around here

[bandu]

On 1/2/2019 at 1:03 PM, Carolina Cajun said:

Main takeaway is that gettleman fuged us hard in the draft from 2014-2016.  Not a single one will get a second contract from us.

well it is in fact the truth...just saying