Thomas Davis is begging us to re sign him even at a cheaper price and reduced playing time

[Icege]

20 minutes ago, TheRed said:

In terms of playing position overall. What I'm saying is, a front office should generally be able to maximize the rookie contract of an outside LB significantly moreso than a QB. With a QB you have multiple variables that can affect perception of value. Like if your OL is swiss cheese and you don't have a run game or a clear cut #1 WR.

I really like Shaq to be clear. I'm just saying he was a project prospect of sorts at a position of strength roster wise at that time when we drafted him. That first round pick could have been used to solidify another position of need.

Sorry, still having a little difficulty following but I think that I'm getting the idea. You're saying that QBs have more variables impacting their performance (primarily the performance of their teammates) while LBs get more opportunities (due to more on the field at the same time) with less reliance on a teammate to successfully make a play?

[TheRed]

15 minutes ago, Icege said:

Sorry, still having a little difficulty following but I think that I'm getting the idea. You're saying that QBs have more variables impacting their performance (primarily the performance of their teammates) while LBs get more opportunities (due to more on the field at the same time) with less reliance on a teammate to successfully make a play?

That's generally what I'm getting at yes, in terms of just throwing out the name of a HOF QB in this context of a conversation. And again we knew Shaq was unlikely to provide much if anything right away. On top of having an already solidified LB corps at the time. I'll give you that perhaps my use of the term "bust" in regards to Shaq is a bit harsh. But ultimately when looking at all the angles it's difficult to argue otherwise when accounting for the fact we already had a Super Bowl ready core of players capable of making a run but we still chose to use a first rounder on a luxury pick. We followed that up with another luxury pick in Butler. We then proceeded to take a nosedive beginning in 2016, and you see where we are now.

[JayNasty]

1 hour ago, MechaZain said:

You really want to burn a first or second rounder on a linebacker with all the other positions this team needs? Because that's what it will take to find a new cheaper Shaq.

Nah, but what we get from Shaq can be found later.  While his play is solid, it doesn't stand out.

If we reup TD, we have a year or two to find a replacement. 

Might be able to squeeze of production out of Jermaine Carter Jr or Andre Smith

In the end, I just hope we spend money wisely

 

[therealmjl]

Shaq sucks

[SmokinwithWilly]

11 hours ago, Lasus83. said:

I keep seeing people say that 'shaq isn't worth it'

 

Please explain what exactly he has done to piss yall off

He hasn't pissed off anyone. Paying Shaq 10m next year would make him the 15th highest paid LB in the NFL. Many of us are of the opinion that he isn't the 15th best LB in the NFL and shouldn't be paid as such. That's it.

I'm not even calling him a bust, I just don't think he's worth paying 10m when we have so many other areas of need.

[Cdw]

3 hours ago, TheRed said:

Slightly different positions wouldn't you say?

Slightly dirrerent performance as well

[GeorgeHanson]

16 hours ago, coralreefer_1 said:

exactly! Everyone is talking about how he better than X or Y, ..but the REAL question is what will he play here for? if he wants anything more than 1.1 million for a year, he can sit down and have a serious life change talk with his wife. 

Based on what I see that would be a one-way conversation, the life change on that is.

[LxDunn]

On 1/1/2019 at 9:54 AM, Jon Snow said:

...and to add to my previous post.  I'm starting to dislike TD for his manipulation of JR and the weaselly way he went about getting his extension.  I'm almost positive he is the very reason Hurney is back.  Olsen had a hand in that also by the way.  So no, TD can go off into the sunset while I still have a thread of respect for the man.

Same here man 

[Basbear]

No one is speaking on this but to me its the biggest issue. 

Remember when Smitty was cut and beason was traded?? Cam and Luke suddenly became team leaders and they were more comfortable doing so.   

 

TD is a HUGE personality on the field and in the locker room. Shaq may come into his own if TD is no longer there.  

[Icege]

16 hours ago, TheRed said:

That's generally what I'm getting at yes, in terms of just throwing out the name of a HOF QB in this context of a conversation. And again we knew Shaq was unlikely to provide much if anything right away. On top of having an already solidified LB corps at the time. I'll give you that perhaps my use of the term "bust" in regards to Shaq is a bit harsh. But ultimately when looking at all the angles it's difficult to argue otherwise when accounting for the fact we already had a Super Bowl ready core of players capable of making a run but we still chose to use a first rounder on a luxury pick. We followed that up with another luxury pick in Butler. We then proceeded to take a nosedive beginning in 2016, and you see where we are now.

I more than agree that we did not maximize the value of his current contract but I see that due to the team's circumstances similar to that of what was going on in GB. In comparison to the selection of Rodgers, both players were selected to replace players that were considered the hearts of their respective teams. Both vets, however, maintained playing at a high level and due to their experience (+ performance) created less incentive to sit them. Shaq got a lot more snaps than Rodgers did during his rookie deal, but I would look towards Rivera for why he wasn't playing more. We know how Rivera prefers his vets, likely because he believes his defensive system is solid and just needs to be executed consistently by players. Being that he is also a player's coach, Rivera very much has the hearts of vets on the team due to his respect for them. Veteran players have to lose their positions, or younger players have to go well above and beyond (ie: Curtis Samuel) or wait for injury to occur ahead of them (ie: Moton, Norwell).

I was screaming from the mountaintops for Landon Collins when he fell (and very high on Byron Jones), but aside from those two, Donovan Smith, and Damarious Randall I don't see anybody selected between Funchess and Shaq that makes me regret that Shaq pick. For that reason, I cannot define it as a luxury pick, nor can I do the same for the Butler selection (there were a few options to go with there, though I won't mention one as to not summon "He-That-Shall-Scream-Two-TEs") despite accepting that he is truly a bust. Labeling them luxury picks is a convenient dismissal of the circumstances surrounding the offseasons which shows that they were not luxury picks, but rather preventative picks.

Mind you, Shaq is the only "preventative" pick that has worked out for us imo (Funchess, Butler, Shaq). Funchess, while he's playing, I don't consider worth the 2nd rounder that we used on him (Frank Clark, Danielle Hunter, or Jaquiski (sp?) Tartt would have rocked tho). Nor do I see Funchess having truly filled in for the rookie form of KB. Following KB's rookie season, there was uncertainty surrounding TD's future with the team as well as a need at WR. We took two players as insurance in that draft and then again with Butler (this was leading into KK's final season on his contract). I wouldn't consider either of those situations luxuries, aside from maybe Funchess. The lack of reloading and being aggressive following the SB loss was a huge blow that the team definitely missed hard on. All of the success from the season before and the same group was expect to go out and do it again with a couple of key returns only to crash and burn. Follow that with the train wreck that was 2016's offseason, and we're seeing the almost exact same situation that we saw from 2009 - 2011 when the only player that we brought in worth a damn was Cam (and depending on how some view it, Hardy + Munnerlyn as well). Even with Cam Newton playing on an offense with DWill, JStew, Agent 89, Olsen, Shockey, R Kalil, Gross, and Wharton it took the team two years to reach the playoffs thanks to an abysmally bad defense that was held off on being rebuilt following the lockout in favor of giving the rookie QB some help. Then we got to watch as we went all in on defense, and then continued to work on the future defense while Cam's supporting cast continued to dwindle.

But, hey, we have had two seemingly home run drafts following a really, really shitty one. I can't call the 2015 draft awful because of Shaq, DWill, and Mayo. Funchess has even contributed as well, despite not what I believe we should have gotten from him. The DWill and Mayo picks more than make up for that, as Mayo has done great as LB depth + ST and DWill is a straight stud at RT. If we can keep him and Shaq plus see if Corn, Haynes, Gaulden, Carter Jr, or Smith develop then yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaa booooooiiii

[Jon Snow]

Shaq was drafted to replace TD.  TD was going to be released 2 seasons ago to allow Shaq to take over but TD wasn't going to go along with that and went crying to Daddy to got what he wanted. Ron was more than happy to go along with it because he loves his vets.  Two years later and nothing has changed.

That's the bottom line.

[TheRed]

20 minutes ago, Icege said:

I more than agree that we did not maximize the value of his current contract but I see that due to the team's circumstances similar to that of what was going on in GB. In comparison to the selection of Rodgers, both players were selected to replace players that were considered the hearts of their respective teams. Both vets, however, maintained playing at a high level and due to their experience (+ performance) created less incentive to sit them. Shaq got a lot more snaps than Rodgers did during his rookie deal, but I would look towards Rivera for why he wasn't playing more. We know how Rivera prefers his vets, likely because he believes his defensive system is solid and just needs to be executed consistently by players. Being that he is also a player's coach, Rivera very much has the hearts of vets on the team due to his respect for them. Veteran players have to lose their positions, or younger players have to go well above and beyond (ie: Curtis Samuel) or wait for injury to occur ahead of them (ie: Moton, Norwell).

I was screaming from the mountaintops for Landon Collins when he fell (and very high on Byron Jones), but aside from those two, Donovan Smith, and Damarious Randall I don't see anybody selected between Funchess and Shaq that makes me regret that Shaq pick. For that reason, I cannot define it as a luxury pick, nor can I do the same for the Butler selection (there were a few options to go with there, though I won't mention one as to not summon "He-That-Shall-Scream-Two-TEs") despite accepting that he is truly a bust. Labeling them luxury picks is a convenient dismissal of the circumstances surrounding the offseasons which shows that they were not luxury picks, but rather preventative picks.

Mind you, Shaq is the only "preventative" pick that has worked out for us imo (Funchess, Butler, Shaq). Funchess, while he's playing, I don't consider worth the 2nd rounder that we used on him (Frank Clark, Danielle Hunter, or Jaquiski (sp?) Tartt would have rocked tho). Nor do I see Funchess having truly filled in for the rookie form of KB. Following KB's rookie season, there was uncertainty surrounding TD's future with the team as well as a need at WR. We took two players as insurance in that draft and then again with Butler (this was leading into KK's final season on his contract). I wouldn't consider either of those situations luxuries, aside from maybe Funchess. The lack of reloading and being aggressive following the SB loss was a huge blow that the team definitely missed hard on. All of the success from the season before and the same group was expect to go out and do it again with a couple of key returns only to crash and burn. Follow that with the train wreck that was 2016's offseason, and we're seeing the almost exact same situation that we saw from 2009 - 2011 when the only player that we brought in worth a damn was Cam (and depending on how some view it, Hardy + Munnerlyn as well). Even with Cam Newton playing on an offense with DWill, JStew, Agent 89, Olsen, Shockey, R Kalil, Gross, and Wharton it took the team two years to reach the playoffs thanks to an abysmally bad defense that was held off on being rebuilt following the lockout in favor of giving the rookie QB some help. Then we got to watch as we went all in on defense, and then continued to work on the future defense while Cam's supporting cast continued to dwindle.

But, hey, we have had two seemingly home run drafts following a really, really shitty one. I can't call the 2015 draft awful because of Shaq, DWill, and Mayo. Funchess has even contributed as well, despite not what I believe we should have gotten from him. The DWill and Mayo picks more than make up for that, as Mayo has done great as LB depth + ST and DWill is a straight stud at RT. If we can keep him and Shaq plus see if Corn, Haynes, Gaulden, Carter Jr, or Smith develop then yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaa booooooiiii

Well ultimately with a QB you can still possibly recoup some of your investment via trade if he's any good at all. Value there is much more significant.

I do recall that the 2015 draft was kind of underwhelming overall. But hey, who knows if another player we possibly drafted could have made some kind of difference for us in SB50? Even Kony Ealy played the game of his life.

That 2016 offseason was baffling. I have to say I think DG started drinking his own kool aid a little too much. We lost talent, and he tried to replace it with lower tier players on the cheap, but his formula stopped working. We caught lightning in a bottle in 2015. He expected it just to continue. The way the Norman thing played out, however you may feel about whether he should have stayed or gone, was just an embarrassment for a professional sports organization. I think that whole thing left a bad taste in everyone's mouth all around. Honestly that may have torpedoed our season before it ever really started.

[Carl Spackler]

7 minutes ago, TheRed said:

Well ultimately with a QB you can still possibly recoup some of your investment via trade if he's any good at all. Value there is much more significant.

I do recall that the 2015 draft was kind of underwhelming overall. But hey, who knows if another player we possibly drafted could have made some kind of difference for us in SB50? Even Kony Ealy played the game of his life.

That 2016 offseason was baffling. I have to say I think DG started drinking his own kool aid a little too much. We lost talent, and he tried to replace it with lower tier players on the cheap, but his formula stopped working. We caught lightning in a bottle in 2015. He expected it just to continue. The way the Norman thing played out, however you may feel about whether he should have stayed or gone, was just an embarrassment for a professional sports organization. I think that whole thing left a bad taste in everyone's mouth all around. Honestly that may have torpedoed our season before it ever really started.

It's also worth noting that one reason the organization probably didn't want to move on from TD was because Shaq was underachieving.

[Udogg]

10 hours ago, Basbear said:

No one is speaking on this but to me its the biggest issue. 

Remember when Smitty was cut and beason was traded?? Cam and Luke suddenly became team leaders and they were more comfortable doing so.   

 

TD is a HUGE personality on the field and in the locker room. Shaq may come into his own if TD is no longer there.  

Or he may continue to suck like he did when TD was suspended.