Stop defending Cam

[Navy_football]

The problem here is that we attempt to gauge Newton's ability using conventional QB stats. Stats don't always tell the story. They can be manipulated and cherry picked to help support ANY argument. 

The reality is that this is the first season Newton has had a real OC since his rookie year. Chud was on some other chasing a HC gig year 2.

And even if we want to be conventional, you can't forget that Cam had 17 TDs and 4 INTs before he was injured this season. And 1 of those INTs bounced off of CJ Andersen's chest, and 2 others were the direct results of bad/wrong routes by Ian Thomas. I honestly believe that's the Cam we can look forward to when he returns, assuming Norv will still be here - or some other competent OC is in place. 

[JamesPage]

9 minutes ago, Navy_football said:

The problem here is that we attempt to gauge Newton's ability using conventional QB stats. Stats don't always tell the story. They can be manipulated and cherry picked to help support ANY argument. 

The reality is that this is the first season Newton has had a real OC since his rookie year. Chud was on some other chasing a HC gig year 2.

And even if we want to be conventional, you can't forget that Cam had 17 TDs and 4 INTs before he was injured this season. And 1 of those INTs bounced off of CJ Andersen's chest, and 2 others were the direct results of bad/wrong routes by Ian Thomas. I honestly believe that's the Cam we can look forward to when he returns, assuming Norv will still be here - or some other competent OC is in place. 

I'm really not trying to cherry pick stats though. I have honestly tried to look at ALL the data available to try and make my point. If it is so easy to cherry pick stats, please could you show me some stats that we could cherry pick to make the argument that Cam Newton is an elite QB? I'm not trying to be facetious, I'm genuinely curios to see you try to make the argument...

The fact of the matter is that almost all qbs that reach and will superbowls are pocket passers with high accuracy and completion percentage. Sure there are one or two (literally) exceptions, but do we really want to hope to get lucky and make it there once every 15 years, or are we actually at some point going to look at what it takes to win a superbowl?

[JamesPage]

11 hours ago, Navy_football said:

The problem here is that we attempt to gauge Newton's ability using conventional QB stats. Stats don't always tell the story. They can be manipulated and cherry picked to help support ANY argument. 

The reality is that this is the first season Newton has had a real OC since his rookie year. Chud was on some other chasing a HC gig year 2.

And even if we want to be conventional, you can't forget that Cam had 17 TDs and 4 INTs before he was injured this season. And 1 of those INTs bounced off of CJ Andersen's chest, and 2 others were the direct results of bad/wrong routes by Ian Thomas. I honestly believe that's the Cam we can look forward to when he returns, assuming Norv will still be here - or some other competent OC is in place. 

You not even going to try?

[JamesPage]

22 minutes ago, Prime said:

Is this guy dumb? Steve Smith year 14? Yeah he wasn't great. Cam newton made him that year. You said ted ginn? Who played 13 seasons and never had 1000 yards until he played with cam? Greg Olsen has been his only security blanket that's reliable and what do you know, he has NFL record 3 straight seasons with 1,000 yards... Alright then. 

 

Who are these panther fans who completely lack the ability to complex think? Embarrassing 

You're the one that called them bums ("nothing but bums" was your exact words). I was just making a point that you exaggerate reality in order to try and make Cam look better than he really is. Say what you want, Steve Smith was a GREAT receiver and Olsen is by no means a bum.

[JamesPage]

27 minutes ago, Prime said:

Is this guy dumb? Steve Smith year 14? Yeah he wasn't great. Cam newton made him that year. You said ted ginn? Who played 13 seasons and never had 1000 yards until he played with cam? Greg Olsen has been his only security blanket that's reliable and what do you know, he has NFL record 3 straight seasons with 1,000 yards... Alright then. 

 

Who are these panther fans who completely lack the ability to complex think? Embarrassing 

Also, pretty rich accusing me of lacking "the ability to complex think" (sic), when I actually attempted to find a metric to compare common receivers between Cam and other QBs, while you just labeled everyone bums and called it a day....

[The NFL Shield At Midfield]

When Brandon LaFell and Steve Smith went to NE and Baltimore respectively they were also in more West Coast style offenses compared to the Coryell style stuff Chud/Shula ran.  Their catch rate is a common metric but it's by no means defining.

Also yeah even if you don't even want to consider that, LaFell and Ginn left here and got to play for two of the greatest football minds in league history.  Frankly I don't think Brady or Brees would be nearly as good if they were in Carolina with Mike Shula calling their plays and Ron Rivera as their fearless leader.

Anyway:

15 hours ago, JamesPage said:

If it is so easy to cherry pick stats, please could you show me some stats that we could cherry pick to make the argument that Cam Newton is an elite QB?

As of right this second Cam with his right arm falling off for a month has completed 67.9% of his passes, higher than Brady, Luck, Roethlisberger, Russell Wilson, and Jared Goff.  From September-November he threw 22 TDs to 7 INTs and completed 69.7% of his passes for a passer rating of 104.  I'll take a healthy Cam with somebody who doesn't owe his career in football to his last name calling his plays.

[JamesPage]

2 hours ago, The NFL Shield At Midfield said:

When Brandon LaFell and Steve Smith went to NE and Baltimore respectively they were also in more West Coast style offenses compared to the Coryell style stuff Chud/Shula ran.  Their catch rate is a common metric but it's by no means defining.

Also yeah even if you don't even want to consider that, LaFell and Ginn left here and got to play for two of the greatest football minds in league history.  Frankly I don't think Brady or Brees would be nearly as good if they were in Carolina with Mike Shula calling their plays and Ron Rivera as their fearless leader.

Anyway:

As of right this second Cam with his right arm falling off for a month has completed 67.9% of his passes, higher than Brady, Luck, Roethlisberger, Russell Wilson, and Jared Goff.  From September-November he threw 22 TDs to 7 INTs and completed 69.7% of his passes for a passer rating of 104.  I'll take a healthy Cam with somebody who doesn't owe his career in football to his last name calling his plays.

I agree that the catch rate is by no means defining, another problem with the stats I listed was that the sample sizes are generally small. I am however fairly confident that the massive disparity between Cams completion percentage and that of the QBs winning superbowls is not solely (or even largely) due to the receivers he had and didn't know of another way to try and compare apples to apples. I found it quite interesting when looking at it though that almost all receivers Cam has thrown to do better else where...

I also agree that Brees and Brady wouldn't be as good with Shula and Rivera, but on the flip side of the coin I don't believe Cam is much better if he has payton or bellichick. To me it seems fairly obvious that Cam doesn't play the style of football that wins championships.

Lastly, this has been Cam's best year yet. If this would be the way he plays year in and year out I would think differently about the situation. To me it just seems that one great and one good year in an 8 year career is not enough for a franchise qb, and I do not think it's worth basing the future of this franchise around someone who is inconsistent at best and below average at worst.