Were a tad Bit Old in a YOUNG nfl...Gettlemagic

[Proudiddy]

15 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Who signed our current starting left tackle again?

When you have full control of the roster, you take full responsibility of the team you build. That's regardless of who you keep or let go from prior regimes.

Gettleman took a 6-10 Hurney team that was 14 million over the cap and built it into a 12-4 playoff team in his first year. On the flipside, we were an 11-5 playoff team last season and got some of our best players in last season's draft. Hurney took that team and turned it into what you see now.

I realize Hurney fans subscribe to this weird "Butterfly Effect" like timeline where somehow if a guy Hurney signed this season is bad it's because Gettleman looked at somebody wrong five years ago, but I'm afraid it's all just spin.

This season belonged to Marty Hurney and Ron Rivera. If it had gone well, no credit would have (or should have) been given to Dave Gettleman.

Unfortunately, the reverse is also true.

Lol, Scot...  a couple of things.  I'm not a Hurney fan.  But, i give him credit for what he does right.  I give Gettleman credit for CMC, Samuel, Williams, and Moton.  I also give him credit for KB, Funchess, Shaq, Butler, Bradberry, Ealy, Short, Star, M. Kalil, and not bringing in a viable pass rusher or corner.  

He might've done a great job turning around a 6-10 team, but he did it by building around pillars Hurney left.  No, the moves both GMs made are not mutually exclusive and they do indeed have a butterfly effect.

Also, Gettleman signed the LT, he just happened to be injured, and so Hurney signed Clark off of his couch.  Wasn't a big fan of that move, but he has performed admirably considering...  in fact, he has performed better than Matt Kalil, who we're stuck with eating up cap for the foreseeable future...  and I didn't even bring up the secondary getting destroyed weekly, which all was the doing of Gettleman starting with letting Norman walk, and we've never recovered.

Again, credit to him for turning around a 6-10 team with little cap space (which i would also argue was more on JR more than Hurney), but we are talent-depleted because of his decisions leading up to Hurney's return.  Hurney has had ONE offseason to put his touch on the team, and the results aren't great, but thanks to little cap space, what else was he going to do?  Moore looks good, Jackson has shown flashes, early impressions of the later-round picks were good...  only thing i can see faulting Hurney for is Gano and maybe signing Poe?  But do you think replacing Poe with Star would've made a difference with this team?

[Car123]

Just now, Mr. Scot said:

Gettleman succeeds: "It's because of Hurney."

Hurney fails: "It's because of Gettleman."

Riiiight 

Like I said, anyone who actually believes this stuff is a dumbass.

2015 - Almost all of our best players were Hurney's guys. Gettleman's cheap pickups did seal the cracks on the Titanic.

2018 - Were devoid of young game changers due to 3 bad drafts in a row.  Only questionable Hurney move is the Poe signing, but we've been decent against the run for the most part. 

[ellis]

Nothing says Happy Holidays like a Dave Gettleman thread in December 2018. 

[Mr. Scot]

2 minutes ago, Proudiddy said:

Lol, Scot...  a couple of things.  I'm not a Hurney fan.  But, i give him credit for what he does right.  I give Gettleman credit for CMC, Samuel, Williams, and Moton.  I also give him credit for KB, Funchess, Shaq, Butler, Bradberry, Ealy, Short, Star, M. Kalil, and not bringing in a viable pass rusher or corner.  

He might've done a great job turning around a 6-10 team, but he did it by building around pillars Hurney left.  No, the moves both GMs made are not mutually exclusive and they do indeed have a butterfly effect.

Also, Gettleman signed the LT, he just happened to be injured, and so Hurney signed Clark off of his couch.  Wasn't a big fan of that move, but he has performed admirably considering...  in fact, he has performed better than Matt Kalil, who we're stuck with eating up cap for the foreseeable future...  and I didn't even bring up the secondary getting destroyed weekly, which all was the doing of Gettleman starting with letting Norman walk, and we've never recovered.

Again, credit to him for turning around a 6-10 team with little cap space (which i would also argue was on JR more sp than Hurney), but we are talent-depleted because of his decisions leading up to Hurney's return.  Hurney has had offseason to put his touch on the team, and the results aren't great, but thanks to little cap space, what else was he going to do?  Moore looks good, Jackson has shown flashes, early impressions of the later-round picks were good...  only thing i can see faulting Hurney for is Gano and maybe signing Poe?  But do you think replacing Poe with Star would've made a difference with this team?

If you actually think Clark is doing an "admirable" job...yeesh 

And if you're going to say "cap space" prevented Hurney from building a good team, you're basically admitting he couldn't do what Gettleman did.

Yes, Gettleman made bad moves. Every GM does. He still built rosters that posted winning seasons, which is all that matters.

Hurney took a roster that won last year and had players like Samuel and McCaffrey and gave us a team that can't beat the Bucs, the Lions or the Browns.

He needs to go. So does Rivera. It's time to start over.

[Mr. Scot]

8 minutes ago, Car123 said:

2015 - Almost all of our best players were Hurney's guys. Gettleman's cheap pickups did seal the cracks on the Titanic.

2018 - Were devoid of young game changers due to 3 bad drafts in a row.  Only questionable Hurney move is the Poe signing, but we've been decent against the run for the most part. 

Like I said, I know you're not this stupid.

But since you wanna go this route, Shall we talk about Cam Newtons performance today?

[Car123]

Just now, Mr. Scot said:

Like I said, I know you're not this stupid.

But since you wanna go this route, Shall we talk about Cam Newtons performance today?

Cam did not play well. Not sure what this has to do with the post.

[Proudiddy]

20 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

If you actually think Clark is doing an "admirable" job...yeesh 

And if you're going to say "cap space" prevented Hurney from building a good team, you're basically admitting he couldn't do what Gettleman did.

Yes, Gettleman made bad moves. Every GM does. He still built rosters that posted winning seasons, which is all that matters.

Hurney took a roster that won last year and had players like Samuel and McCaffrey and gave us a team that can't beat the Bucs, the Lions or the Browns.

He needs to go. So does Rivera. It's time to start over.

I'm not arguing whether Hurney should be retained.  I honestly don't care if he is retained, but I am kind of hoping for new blood and fresh eyes.  But, i also am not into hero worship...  i may post some "emotional" things on the board about the team, but I'm objective as best as I can be until I see someone is who they are...  and you and I both know coaching is likely a bigger issue with this team than the roster.  That being said, what you're saying is kind of proving my point further...

You're saying Hurney should've built a winner with no cap space like Gettleman did, but again, Gettleman inherited young pillars to build around.  Hurney 2.0 inherited an old ass team, that thanks to Gettleman's repeated short-sighted, stopgap investments and poor drafting, was depleted of impactful talent and depth.  We literally wasted 3 first rounders and multiple second rounders.  That makes a huge difference, Scot.

And yes, in keeping perspective, signing a guy in week 2 off his couch to be your starting LT and outperforming the big-money, injured albatross that was supposed ro be your starter is admirable...  not amazing.  Not something to build around.  Not even worth keeping.  It is admirable lol.  Many offered up the argument with similar signings that Gettleman made, "well, you aren't gonna finda better option available, in-season," which is usually true...  and although Clark sucks, he is still better than Kalil lol.

[ellis]

I’m personally aiming for something better than Dave Gettleman and/or Marty Hurney. 

[Mr. Scot]

18 minutes ago, Proudiddy said:

I'm not arguing whether Hurney should be retained.  I honestly don't care if he is retained, but I am kind of hoping for new blood and fresh eyes.  But, i also am not into hero worship...  i may post some "emotional" things on the board about the team, but I'm objective as best as I can be until I see someone is who they are...  and you and I both know coaching is likely a bigger issue with this team than the roster.  That being said, what you're saying is kind of proving my point further...

You're saying Hurney should've built a winner with no cap space like Gettleman did, but again, Gettleman inherited young pillars to build around.  Hurney 2.0 inherited an old ass team, that thanks to Gettleman's repeated short-sighted, stopgap investments and poor drafting, was depleted of impactful talent and depth.  We literally wasted 3 first rounders and multiple second rounders.  That makes a huge difference, Scot.

And yes, in keeping perspective, signing a guy in week 2 off his couch to be your starting LT and outperforming the big-money, injured albatross that was supposed ro be your starter is admirable...  not amazing.  Not something to build around.  Not even worth keeping.  It is admirable lol.  Many offered up the argument with similar signings that Gettleman made, "well, gou aren't gonna finda better option available, in-season," which is usually true...  and although Clark sucks, he is still better than Kalil lol.

Wrong on nearly all counts.

I always love when people try to claim Gettleman succeeded because of Hurney's "pillars" yet they can never explain why Hurney didn't succeed with the same players.

I can.

"Pillars" don't mean jack sh-t if you can't build around them. It's a 53 man roster, not a 2 man one. If you don't build a complete team, you lose.

Hurney inherited McCaffrey, Samuel, Moton and more seasoned versions of both Newton and Kuechly than the ones he left. How's that working out?

And Clark isn't "outperforming" anybody. He's terrible. The only thing that's kept Cam out of the hospital this year is that he's getting the ball out faster.

[Cpt slay a ho]

DG didn’t leave this team in good shape defense wise, offense wise he left us in decent shape. The kalil contract is Unforgivable 

[Proudiddy]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Wrong on nearly all counts.

I always love when people try to claim Gettleman succeeded because of Hurney's "pillars" yet they can never explain why Hurney didn't succeed with the same players.

I can.

"Pillars" don't mean jack sh-t if you can't build around them. It's a 53 man roster, not a 2 man one. If you don't build a complete team, you lose.

Hurney inherited McCaffrey, Samuel, and more seasoned versions of both Newton and Kuechly than the ones he left. How's that working out?

And Clark isn't "outperforming" anybody. He's terrible. The only thing that's kept Cam out of the hospital this year is that he's getting the ball out faster.

No, not wrong on any of those counts, Scot.  What you are arguing is completely opinion based.  You are a fan of Gettleman, i get it.  And I agree, he gets credit for building an entire 53 man roster whem he took over the team and we won.  But, again, he also left us with an old, talent-depleted team, and that does have a lot to do with many of our current problems.  So, yes, he is mostly responsible for the personnel we currently have because we had less resources and young talent when Hurney took over this time versus when Gettleman started.

And Cam, Luke, TD, and Olsen may be more seasoned now, but they are also more injured and older, all while not having complimentary pieces or successors in line thanks to Gettleman's horrid drafting.  So, Hurney didn't inherit a better team.  He inherited an older, more injured team...  which is due to Gettleman.

You don't have to agree, but that is a fact.  

And idk why you're railing on about Clark...  I'm not praising him.  I know he sucks, but again, we are stuck with him this season because of Gettleman and Kalil.  I don't even know why this is a point worth arguing over.  I brought up the fact that we're stuck with Kalil, who was the worst starting tackle in the league by many accounts, while paying him a significant amount of money, thanks to Gettleman, and you countered that by blaming Hurney for signing Clark to replace him?  Lol.  Was Hurney supposed to anticipate Kalil and Williams getting injured?  I'm not following.

Regardless, I won't continue arguing this.  You percieve that I am a Hurney fan and a Gettleman hater.  I am not a Hurney fan, and I am even less of a fan of Gettleman.  Only dog I have in the fight is our team...  i just view how we arrived at our successes and failures differently than you do.  We can agree to disagree, I suppose.

And this is pointless in the long run...  it's honestly my preference to just clean house and bring in a new GM and coaching staff, period.  Idc how we ended up here...  that will always be a matter of subjectivity and opinion.  I just want it fixed.

[Mr. Scot]

1 minute ago, Proudiddy said:

No, not wrong on any of those counts, Scot.  What you are arguing is completely opinion based.  You are a fan of Gettleman, i get it.  And I agree, he gets credit for building an entire 53 man roster whem he took over the team and we won.  But, again, he also left us with an old, talent-depleted team, and that does have a lot to do with many of our current problems.  So, yes, he is mostly responsible for the personnel we currently have because we had less resources and young talent when Hurney took over this time versus when Gettleman started.

And Cam, Luke, TD, and Olsen may be more seasoned now, but they are also more injured and older, all while not having complimentary pieces or successors in line thanks to Gettleman's horrid drafting.  So, Hurney didn't inherit a better team.  He inherited an older, more injured team...  which is due to Gettleman.

You don't have to agree, but that is a fact.  

And idk why you're railing on about Clark...  I'm not praising him.  I know he sucks, but again, we are stuck with him this season because of Gettleman and Kalil.  I don't even know why this is a point worth arguing over.  I brought up the fact that we're stuck with Kalil, who was the worst starting tackle in the league by many accounts, while paying him a significant amount of money, thanks to Gettleman, and you countered that by blaming Hurney for signing Clark to replace him?  Lol.  Was Hurney supposed to anticipate Kalil and Williams getting injured?  I'm not following.

Regardless, I won't continue arguing this.  You percieve that I am a Hurney fan and a Gettleman hater.  I am not a Hurney fan, and I am even less of a fan of Gettleman.  Only dog I have in the fight is our team...  i just view how we arrived at our successes and failures differently than you do.  We can agree to disagree, I suppose.

And this is pointless in the long run...  it's honestly my preference to just clean house and bring in a new GM and coaching staff, period.  Idc how we ended up here...  that will always be a matter of subjectivity and opinion.  I just want it fixed.

Quick hint: The Matt Kalil contract was bad, but you're acting like it took up 50% of our cap. You're also ignoring that Hurney tweaked it this offseason and basically guaranteed him another year for which now we'll have to eat the dead cap.

And I'm not a "fan" of anybody. What I want is people running our team who know what they're doing. Gettleman did. Hurney doesn't. But since Jerry Richardson was a dumbass, here we are.

I'd add that I'm only beginning to realize just how terrible Ron Rivera really is, even worse than I previously believed. I'm at the point now of believing that the seasons we had under Gettleman may have been borderline miraculous given that Rivera was head coach.

Gettleman was a good enough GM to cover Rivera's shortcomings. Hurney isn't. One is gone because the prior owner was a dipsh-t. If the new owner isn't, the other will be too, along with Rivera.

[Proudiddy]

11 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Quick hint: The Matt Kalil contract was bad, but you're acting like it took up 50% of our cap. You're also ignoring that Hurney tweaked it this offseason and basically guaranteed him another year for which now we'll have to eat the dead cap.

And I'm not a "fan" of anybody. What I want is people running our team who know what they're doing. Gettleman did. Hurney doesn't. But since Jerry Richardson was a dumbass, here we are.

I'd add that I'm only beginning to realize just how terrible Ron Rivera really is, even worse than I previously believed. I'm at the point now of believing that the seasons we had under Gettleman may have been borderline miraculous given that Rivera was head coach.

Gettleman was a good enough GM to cover Rivera's shortcomings. Hurney isn't. One is gone because the prior owner was a dipsh-t. If the new owner isn't, the other will be too, along with Rivera.

I agree on Rivera.  I'm still amazed he has fooled professionals long enough to have stuck around this long, and every time people try to compare him to other long-tenured coaches (most of whom have won a superbowl) who deserve deference and respect, i am amazed.  

I will say I am also concerned about the amount of turnover that is gonna be needed to turn us into a winner again.  But, then again, I feel like the right coach could mask our deficiencies long enough for us to upgrade personnel.  McVay, Reich, and Pederson are all guys who have done more with a lot less.

[Mr. Scot]

5 minutes ago, Proudiddy said:

I agree on Rivera.  I'm still amazed he has fooled professionals long enough to have stuck around this long, and every time people try to compare him to other long-tenured coaches (most of whom have won a superbowl) who deserve deference and respect, i am amazed.  

But, i am also concerned about the amount of turnover that is gonna be needed to turn us into a winner again.  But, I feel lioe the right coach could mask our deficiencies long enough for us to upgrade personnel.

We we're gonna have a lot of turnover next year anyway. But there were things we could have done this year that could have helped.

Trying to get younger at center rather than giving Ryan Kalil a 10 million dollar farewell tour would have been a good start.

Leaving Taylor Moton at left tackle and counting on him as the future there rather than signing a thirty-three year old turnstile off his couch would have been another good move.

There are others...not paying Dontari Poe,Olsen, Davis, Torrey Smith, etc.

But here we are.