Why Jarrett/Moore and the TEs are shells of what they could be

[top dawg]

I am really not trying to add to the Jake/Fox sux threads. I am really not. But, to me, they stick out like a sore thumb.

I was just daydreaming about how effective an offense that the Colts have with two rookies...how the Giants have an effective offense with a rookie and guys who have basically been on ice...and why Jarrett can't be our possession guy like Austin Collie is to the Colts and (the other) Steve Smith is to the Giants...and why can't Kenny Moore be our Pierre Garcon, Mario Manningham, or Hakeem Nicks...and why Rosario, Barnidge and/or King (either separately, or as a unit) can't at least equal the production of a Dallas Clark, or Kevin Boss on many Sundays...?

The answer is simple: Fox has, and always has had, a lack of imagination in his ultra conservative philosophy on offense, and even if his mind would afford him just a little insight into the fact that sometimes imitation of the success of others is a virtue, his wrists are handcuffed by the lack of physical skills and/or sound judgment and decision making by Delhomme. But, of course, he has been Jake's biggest fan...

As long as Jake is playing at his current level, is there really hope for Jarrett. Moore, Rosario King or Barnidge to ever play an effective role in the offense?

And, the trickle down effect has finally caught up to Smitty in the form of consistent double teams and off-the-mark balls. With the current offensive play calling (and I do mean offensive), do we have a realistic chance of beating even good teams, much less the historically elite squads?

I think y'all know the answer, and that's why a change has to come.

[Hairless Cat]

theres some new insight

[top dawg]

theres some new insight

Sarcasm. Now that's new to the Huddle...anyway...

The insight basically is about a lack of focus, and that ultimately clamoring Jarrett and/or Moore, in particular, will ultimately not solve the central issue...unless our leadership does a 180 from what it's doing now (which is kind of like believing in miracles).

Sitting and thinking about Moore and Jarrett, to me anyway, quite naturally makes one think about the Collies, Garcons, Knoxes, Sims-Walkers, Bennetts, Manninghams, etc. of the world, but why think about what they do when they obviously have better situations. Even Mohammed Massaquois has carved out a respectable game even though he is stuck with Derek Anderson.

The only other receiver at the moment who is in a similar situation to Steve Smith is Santana Moss. Look at the trouble that Washington is in, and you may see some similarity to the Panthers, and it appears that they are going to do what needs to be done. Snyder reportedly tried already, but he has apparently resigned himself to the fact that mid-season changes are not the way to go after being told as much.

[Davidson Deac II]

We are a running team. Thats the bottom line. Even if the passing game was more effective, we would still be a running team. Thats not a bad thing. Its been a winning formula in the NFL for a long time. Teams can win superbowls that way. In 05/06, the steelers won a superbowl that way, and two years later, the Giants did.

Peyton Manning is a superstar Quarterback. They are relatively rare, and he gives Indy a chance to do things that most other teams can't do. The same goes for Tom Brady, and maybe Drew Brees. We don't need to be more like Indy. We don't have one of those types of quarterbacks, so we have to make do with what we have. We need to be more efficient in our passing game. We need to complete passes, and move the ball with it when we have to. If that means more passes to the tight end, so be it. If it means finding ways to get Steve Smith the ball, then thats ok as well. All of this is true if the QB is Matt Moore or Jake. It will probaby be true if we draft or trade for another QB next year.

[top dawg]

We are a running team. Thats the bottom line. Even if the passing game was more effective, we would still be a running team. Thats not a bad thing. Its been a winning formula in the NFL for a long time. Teams can win superbowls that way. In 05/06, the steelers won a superbowl that way, and two years later, the Giants did.

Peyton Manning is a superstar Quarterback. They are relatively rare, and he gives Indy a chance to do things that most other teams can't do. The same goes for Tom Brady, and maybe Drew Brees. We don't need to be more like Indy. We don't have one of those types of quarterbacks, so we have to make do with what we have. We need to be more efficient in our passing game. We need to complete passes, and move the ball with it when we have to. If that means more passes to the tight end, so be it. If it means finding ways to get Steve Smith the ball, then thats ok as well. All of this is true if the QB is Matt Moore or Jake. It will probaby be true if we draft or trade for another QB next year.

DD, I basically agree with you. I love the fundamental run-first philosophy, and hopefully last Sunday was a harbinger of things to come for the remainder of 2009, but that run-first philosophy breaks down very quickly if you don't seem to have a passing game that can keep teams honest. You need some semblance of balance to make it work, and we don't even seem to have a semblance of balance. That's why I am a little skeptical about our future (fearful, actually). The window of the likes of talent that our running game possesses, along with window of Smitty's prime, are not going to stay open forever (I say maybe four years, notwithstanding contracts will have to be extended of Williams, Stewart and Smitty---which in terms means that the will of all parties involved will have to be there [here, in Carolina]).

[Davidson Deac II]

DD, I basically agree with you. I love the fundamental run-first philosophy, and hopefully last Sunday was a harbinger of things to come for the remainder of 2009, but that run-first philosophy breaks down very quickly if you don't seem to have a passing game that can keep teams honest. You need some semblance of balance to make it work, and we don't even seem to have a semblance of balance. That's why I am a little skeptical about our future (fearful, actually). The window of the likes of talent that our running game possesses, along with window of Smitty's prime, are not going to stay open forever (I say maybe four years, notwithstanding contracts will have to be extended of Williams, Stewart and Smitty---which in terms means that the will of all parties involved will have to be there [here, in Carolina]).

Hey, it is what it is.

We definitely need a new Quarterback. I don't know if its Moore, or a draftpick, or we need to trade for someone, but there needs to be a change. I just don't think its going to happen this year, unless Jake gets injured, or we get eliminated and Fox decides to give Feely or Moore a shot.

[Snake]

Hey your just saying what everyone knows. The fact is that were a running team and Dwill and Jstew are gonna get the ball 90% of the game no matter if they put 7 in the box or 27 in the box and get stuffed all day. Fox is gonna stick with every vet he has till there wheels fall off like he did with Davis and is not gonna give any Rookies or 2nd year players shots where a Vet sits. Just the way it is. Get use to it cause your gonna see it all season and until he gets fired.

[top dawg]

...Get use to it cause your gonna see it all season and until he gets fired.

Well, that's really the whole point. Moore, Jarrett, The Rock, Santa, and no one is going to bring real change, and yet you have those that think it will.

[Gscottnc5]

This has been brought alot. But I think Smitty's comments was more his way of pointing out that Jake just can't perform anymore. I really see JD not being the starter next year, calling it, or he will retire.

But the Smitty comment seems a little passive aggressive towards Jake.

[Davidson Deac II]

Well, that's really the whole point. Moore, Jarrett, The Rock, Santa, and no one is going to bring real change, and yet you have those that think it will.

For what its worth, tight ends and running backs have been getting more completions this year. TE's have gotten 22% of the completions, backs have gotten 26%. Thats roughly inline with or at least close to the NFL average. Thats one part of our offense I actually like. So given that we don't change that, the only way Jarrett and Moore are going to get more receptions is if we throw more, or throw to the starting receivers less. Jake throwing more is something none of us want to see, and we certainly shouldn't cut down on passes to Smith, so to do what you want would require fewer passes to Moose.

[top dawg]

For what its worth, tight ends and running backs have been getting more completions this year. TE's have gotten 22% of the completions, backs have gotten 26%. Thats roughly inline with or at least close to the NFL average. Thats one part of our offense I actually like. So given that we don't change that, the only way Jarrett and Moore are going to get more receptions is if we throw more, or throw to the starting receivers less. Jake throwing more is something none of us want to see, and we certainly shouldn't cut down on passes to Smith, so to do what you want would require fewer passes to Moose.

DD, to be brutally honest, all I want is Jake gone. I have tried to take him with a grain of salt over the years, and even learned to respect him. But now, it's time to give him a party, shake his hand, and talk about the good times as you lead him to the door.

But, since you mention it, it may be time to set Moose out to pasture also. Don't get me wrong, I love the guy. I wouldn't mind seeing him in some kind of capacity for the Panthers for years to come, but pertaining to the field of play at some point you have to think about opportunity costs (to use a term from my wife who has a degree in econ). Moose hasn't been lighting the world on fire (which probably brings us back to Jake), the offense has looked shaky, even in victories against organizations that are train wrecks, so why not put the new blood in to see what they can do? Give 'em some valuable playing time? The only negative that I can see coming from it is the perception that they suck because of Jake's inability to get them the ball. But that may be a good thing because perhaps no other team will be rushing in to sweep them up. We believe that these guys may be being stymied by Jake/Fox, but even we won't know what we have until we see them used on a consistent basis when it really matters, which brings us right back to Jake/Fox. It's an ugly cycle.

[rey2009]

Go To www.carolinapanthersv2.blogspot.com:bigear:

[scpanther22]

IMO.there is no excuse as to why Jarret has only been targeted 2 times this entire season..no excuse for not having Barnidge out there at least of some passing downs..But thats fox..he just loves the vets

[Baschski]

As long as Jake is playing at his current level, is there really hope for Jarrett. Moore, Rosario King or Barnidge to ever play an effective role in the offense?

And, the trickle down effect has finally caught up to Smitty in the form of consistent double teams and off-the-mark balls. With the current offensive play calling (and I do mean offensive), do we have a realistic chance of beating even good teams, much less the historically elite squads?

Actually, I really like the way we've been using the tight ends this year. All of our passing TD's have been to tight ends. Jeff King and Dante Rosario have both produced more than Kevin Boss this year. Together, they come pretty close to Dallas Clark's numbers. Moore and Jarrett won't be used much at all this year simply because we almost never have more than 2 receivers on the field. And you know what? I'm ok with that, because I trust Jeff King and Dante Rosario more than I trust Jarrett or Moore.

And yes, with the current offensive playcalling, we DO have a chance of beating the good teams. Because, by God, we can run the poo out of the football.