CMC has a chance to be 3rd RB ever to reach the 1000/1000 club

[PantherBoy95]

8 hours ago, Palmetto said:

We went from needing more weapons for Cam to Needing more play makers on defense...and a kicker

It's like we're just not allowed to have nice things....

When have we EVER said "Yeah our Offense is great, but our Defense is a liability"?!?!

[Woodie]

17 hours ago, nickzz said:

i'm sorry but i think you have the homer goggles on big time. claiming CMC could be a #1 WR is absolutely ridiculous.

 

i understand the point you were making, but that #1 WR claim is silly. his route-running really isn't much better than the other elite pass catching RBs.

Did you pay attention to the draft process when CMC came out.  There were many analysts that believed he could be the best WR from the class if he focused on that.  So no, saying it's possible he could be a #1 if he worked solely at WR and continued to develop his WR traits is not being a homer.  Now, if I said he WAS a #1 or could be even though his focus has been at RB, then you might have a case.  But I didn't, so you don't.  And the idea didn't spring out of thin air simply because he's a Panther.  

Regardless, that wasn't the point (it was simply a way to point out that he has natural WR traits that most of the RB's being discussed don't), so there really wasn't a reason to go there except to argue a point that was a non-point.  

[saints4lifeagain]

22 hours ago, Woodie said:

Yeah, but I do think both are very good, and comparing them is silly because their situations are so different. 

With that said, I personally think CMC has a greater skill set and would be on a whole different level if he had Payton calling plays for him the last two years.  No matter how you slice it, Kamara has greatly benefitted from having Sean Payton calling plays and Drew Brees controlling the offense.  

I won't get into a CMC vs. Kamara debate, and I won't take anything away from CMC. He's having a phenomenal year. 

But once again, this talking point is lazy. Sean Payton is a fantastic offense mind. Offensive genius, if you will. However, Kamara runs against a loaded box more than CMC does, and also draws much more attention out of the backfield. I haven't seen Kamara catch a wide open dump off like CMC did quite a few different times yesterday since maybe last year. Dudes being double covered out of the backfield, all year. He's not being schemed into his success. He's just good. 

[nickzz]

32 minutes ago, Woodie said:

Did you pay attention to the draft process when CMC came out.  There were many analysts that believed he could be the best WR from the class if he focused on that.  So no, saying it's possible he could be a #1 if he worked solely at WR and continued to develop his WR traits is not being a homer.  Now, if I said he WAS a #1 or could be even though his focus has been at RB, then you might have a case.  But I didn't, so you don't.  And the idea didn't spring out of thin air simply because he's a Panther.  

Regardless, that wasn't the point (it was simply a way to point out that he has natural WR traits that most of the RB's being discussed don't), so there really wasn't a reason to go there except to argue a point that was a non-point.  

sorry dude but you'll only find panther fans that hold this opinion. it's silly.

[Woodie]

7 minutes ago, saints4lifeagain said:

I won't get into a CMC vs. Kamara debate, and I won't take anything away from CMC. He's having a phenomenal year. 

But once again, this talking point is lazy. Sean Payton is a fantastic offense mind. Offensive genius, if you will. However, Kamara runs against a loaded box more than CMC does, and also draws much more attention out of the backfield. I haven't seen Kamara catch a wide open dump off like CMC did quite a few different times yesterday since maybe last year. Dudes being double covered out of the backfield, all year. He's not being schemed into his success. He's just good. 

You need to pay more attention to what this team actually does.  Particularly last year when CMC was woefully underutilized (and often misused as well) while Payton put Kamara in prime positions time and time again.  And while I love Cam, his strength as a QB is his ability to effect a game with both his legs and his arm, but nobody is going to confuse him with a HOF passer like Brees is.     

And I am in no way taking anything away from Kamara, which you would see if you paid attention.  But to ignore the Payton and Brees effect is simply being intentionally obtuse.  To be clear, I am not knocking Kamara, but he has clearly been put in a better position that McCaffrey was, and there is no reasonable way to alter that truth.  

[saints4lifeagain]

1 minute ago, Woodie said:

You need to pay more attention to what this team actually does.  Particularly last year when CMC was woefully underutilized (and often misused as well) while Payton put Kamara in prime positions time and time again.  And while I love Cam, his strength as a QB is his ability to effect a game with both his legs and his arm, but nobody is going to confuse him with a HOF passer like Brees is.     

And I am in no way taking anything away from Kamara, which you would see if you paid attention.  But to ignore the Payton and Brees effect is simply being intentionally obtuse.  To be clear, I am not knocking Kamara, but he has clearly been put in a better position that McCaffrey was, and there is no reasonable way to alter that truth.  

One would think that "being put in a better position" would result in fewer 8+ man boxes and less attention in the passing game. 

My guy, I watch every game, and generally every All 22 for NO, ATL, and CAR. I don't need to pay more attention to what any team does lol. Kamara is THE focal point of defenses. You can deny it, to push your talking point, but it's true. Show me snap after snap of CMC being doubled OUT OF THE BACKFIELD and I'll concede that they both receive the same attention. But I'm telling you, you won't find it, and if Kamara is garnering more attention, how is he in a better position?

[Woodie]

10 minutes ago, nickzz said:

sorry dude but you'll only find panther fans that hold this opinion. it's silly.

Really, you honestly think that?  Then it's clear you did not pay any attention to the draft buildup, nor do you listen when announcers talk about McCaffrey's route running ability and how good of a receiver he is.  I wasn't basing what I said on simply on my own personal opinions, I was going off what many analysts said heading into the draft.    

If you are so certain that it's a silly thing to say, then explain why he couldn't be anything more than a slot guy (which, by the way, a slot receiver can be #1's, just ask NE, it all depends on the offense how a guy is used). 

I can support my statement, can you?  He's big enough to be a #1, he came out of college as probably the best route runner in the class, he has excellent hands, he has good speed for a WR, and that's just the obvious things.  The mistake you are making is looking at him as a RB trying to play WR, but the reality is that nobody knows what he could have been if he focused on WR instead of RB, which is why I said he COULD have been a #1 or #2.  He had the basic skill set to develop, but went a different direction, so it's absurd to state anything as definitive.    

[saints4lifeagain]

For the "Kamara is in a better position crowd". These are screenshots of every CMC reception (aside from the one where he dusted the LB go get wide open, because he earned being wide open on that one). 

Again, not slighting CMC, but stop acting like he's in a worse position that Kamara.

[Woodie]

8 minutes ago, saints4lifeagain said:

One would think that "being put in a better position" would result in fewer 8+ man boxes and less attention in the passing game. 

My guy, I watch every game, and generally every All 22 for NO, ATL, and CAR. I don't need to pay more attention to what any team does lol. Kamara is THE focal point of defenses. You can deny it, to push your talking point, but it's true. Show me snap after snap of CMC being doubled OUT OF THE BACKFIELD and I'll concede that they both receive the same attention. But I'm telling you, you won't find it, and if Kamara is garnering more attention, how is he in a better position?

Yes, you do need to pay more attention because if you watched with an open mind, you would see that along with Cam, McCaffrey is THE focal point of the defenses.  So much so that many teams regularly put a spy on him.  Every team gives him extra attention, so much so that he has huge value as a decoy.  The reason that our misdirection has been working so well is that defenses pay so much attention to CMC that they get themselves out of position pursuing him.

And he gets so wide open because he is skilled at the nuances of route running and being able to get lost in traffic, along with the fact that no LB can cover him, and he often jukes them out of their shoes.  

Now, I will say that much of my argument has been more about their rookie seasons where there is no reasonable counter to the fact that Shula had no idea how to use CMC, and even admitted it later in the season.  Whereas Payton had a plan when he took Kamara.  That showed up in their usage.  Kamara was clearly in a better situation.  But you keep acting like Kamara is getting so much more attention than McCaffrey, which just isn't true.  And don't be fooled by the times he looks wide open, that didn't happen because teams aren't paying attention to him.  

Again, I'm not putting down Kamara, and I'm sure he is seeing an inflated amount of attention because of the year he had as a rookie.  But don't underestimate the difference in designing and calling an offense between Payton and Shula.  However, Turner has greatly improved things (although he still has the occasional head scratching moment).

I think we can (or at least we should be able to) agree that both are very good backs that demand a defenses attention, and both teams are very happy to have them on their respective teams.

 

[FugAllY'all]

People thought he was too small, too weak, too white. They didn't understand. He's not locked in here with them, they are locked in here with him. 

[Mikey818]

49 minutes ago, FugAllY'all said:

People thought he was too small, too weak, too white. They didn't understand. He's not locked in here with them, they are locked in here with him. 

Even if he leads the nfl in yards from scrimmage(cuurently only 100 yards behind the leader) he probably won’t make the pro bowl because he doesn’t fit the stereotype like Kamara barkley Elliot and gurley do. 

[saints4lifeagain]

7 hours ago, Woodie said:

Yes, you do need to pay more attention because if you watched with an open mind, you would see that along with Cam, McCaffrey is THE focal point of the defenses.  So much so that many teams regularly put a spy on him.  Every team gives him extra attention, so much so that he has huge value as a decoy.  The reason that our misdirection has been working so well is that defenses pay so much attention to CMC that they get themselves out of position pursuing him.

And he gets so wide open because he is skilled at the nuances of route running and being able to get lost in traffic, along with the fact that no LB can cover him, and he often jukes them out of their shoes.  

Now, I will say that much of my argument has been more about their rookie seasons where there is no reasonable counter to the fact that Shula had no idea how to use CMC, and even admitted it later in the season.  Whereas Payton had a plan when he took Kamara.  That showed up in their usage.  Kamara was clearly in a better situation.  But you keep acting like Kamara is getting so much more attention than McCaffrey, which just isn't true.  And don't be fooled by the times he looks wide open, that didn't happen because teams aren't paying attention to him.  

Again, I'm not putting down Kamara, and I'm sure he is seeing an inflated amount of attention because of the year he had as a rookie.  But don't underestimate the difference in designing and calling an offense between Payton and Shula.  However, Turner has greatly improved things (although he still has the occasional head scratching moment).

I think we can (or at least we should be able to) agree that both are very good backs that demand a defenses attention, and both teams are very happy to have them on their respective teams.

 

I've never said he wasn't a good back. However, I added screenshots, just from the last game, of him not "demanding" a defenses attention. Now listen, the caveat to that is, they didn't pay him attention and he put up 250. I understand that. My argument is that he is not the focal point of the defenses gameplan, and I think I laid that out fairly clearly above. There's not a single catch where a defender is within 5 yards. Most aren't within 10. One there isn't a defender within 20 yards. 

That doesn't mean I'm bagging on CMC. I thought last year, the only real hole in his game was his inability to break a few tackles. He's fixed that this year. He runs hard, and doesn't go down at first contact or with arm tackles. Dudes a damn good RB. I'm not arguing against that. 

[Woodie]

4 hours ago, saints4lifeagain said:

I've never said he wasn't a good back. However, I added screenshots, just from the last game, of him not "demanding" a defenses attention. Now listen, the caveat to that is, they didn't pay him attention and he put up 250. I understand that. My argument is that he is not the focal point of the defenses gameplan, and I think I laid that out fairly clearly above. There's not a single catch where a defender is within 5 yards. Most aren't within 10. One there isn't a defender within 20 yards. 

That doesn't mean I'm bagging on CMC. I thought last year, the only real hole in his game was his inability to break a few tackles. He's fixed that this year. He runs hard, and doesn't go down at first contact or with arm tackles. Dudes a damn good RB. I'm not arguing against that. 

I don't think you're bagging on McCaffrey.  I think we both realize this isn't about questioning either Kamara's or CMC's ability.  It's simply about the position they have been put in.  

With that said, you are mistaken if you don't think McCaffrey isn't a focal point of the defense.  A few screenshots without context doesn't really show anything.  But even so, every player has a handful of plays where it looks to the novice eye like nobody was paying attention to him.  Your assertion also mitigates McCaffrey's role in getting in that position.  When you see him open this year, it can be attributed to, among other things, better play design, his ability to find an open spot, his understanding of how to manipulate defenders, and just good old fashioned route running. And like I said, this year Norv has done a better job of putting him in position to make a play.  But last year he was put in a horrible position for a player with his skillset and a coach that was clueless about how to use him.  

But this discussion started over who was put in the better position, which I don't think there is any legitimate question about.  So while you take umbrage to the idea that Kamara has been put in a better position than CMC, the evidence shows otherwise.  Yes, Kamara may be seeing more stacked boxes than last year, but Sean is using that exact issue to open up other facets of the offense.  Last year, Payton took advantage of teams keying on Brees by attacking with your backs.  As a result, Drew did not have quite the gaudy stats he has previously (still great, but probably his worst statistical year since he's been in NO).  This year, with teams keying on Kamara, he's attacking with the passing game.  So I don't see how any reasonable person could think that Kamara hasn't benefitted far more from his coaches and surrounding talent than McCaffrey has.

[RumHam]

On 11/25/2018 at 10:40 PM, Kevin Greene said:

McCaffrey is everything I thought he'd be coming out of college. 

Pray Hurney doesn't give Funchess a massive extension.

If Hurney is still here and hopefully he won't be, you can bet on him giving Funchess an extension and letting Williams walk.