Torrey Smith is at practice today.

[panthers55]

This whole starter issue is overblown. It doesn't matter if he starts or not. Norv sees what happens and adjust accordingly. If Torry plays well and produces he will get more touches. The same with DJ and Samuel. My coaches always told me that if you want to be on the field, make plays so they can't easily replace or ignore you. Norv has no long term loyalties to any player. He will play who he thinks will best help the team 

[CRA]

4 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

This whole starter issue is overblown. It doesn't matter if he starts or not. Norv sees what happens and adjust accordingly. If Torry plays well and produces he will get more touches. The same with DJ and Samuel. My coaches always told me that if you want to be on the field, make plays so they can't easily replace or ignore you. Norv has no long term loyalties to any player. He will play who he thinks will best help the team 

I don't care who gets the start tag.  Dont mind if Smith even gets that being the vet. 

but until his injury, the reps in regards to Smith, Moore, Samuel, Wright were not well distributed IMO.  I think the injury only confirms that is at least true going forward. 

[Mage]

On 11/14/2018 at 3:09 PM, CRA said:

and really you have to include Samuel.  They both matter.  They need Smith's reps. 

Week after Baltimore Moore still accountable for more yards than Smith did in every game he has played but 1. So did Samuel. 

Moore and Smith are both more dynamic and that isn't close.  Especially in an offense that doesn't include several deep verticals a game.  Which is pretty much the only thing in Smith's career has had stood out doing.  

I mean, yeah, but acting like he was a more productive receiver than Smith is disingenuous.  Moore only had 1 reception for 16 yards in the Bucs game (week after Balt).  39 of his yards came from rushing.  How does Torrey Smith starting at WR or getting his normal reps prevent Moore from getting those same touches running the ball?  He had 2 rushing attempts that game, which is about on par with what he was getting with Smith started.

Excluding the Cowboys game, Moore averaged 3.3 targets and 2.5 receptions a game with Smith healthy and starting.  Since Smith has been out?  Moore has averaged 4.5 targets and 3.3 receptions a game.  A minimal difference.  Ya'll act like starting or not starting Smith is going to lead to considerably more targets and touches for Moore, but that simply isn't going to happen.  The expectations are unreasonable.  McCaffrey, Olsen, and Funchess are going to take the large share of the targets and touches no matter what.  Even with Smith out of the equation, it's difficult to get Samuel and Moore more involved without sacrificing what they do in the game.  

Smith starting at #2 does not prevent Moore from getting looks inside, outside, or as a rusher.  And quite frankly there is no evidence that Moore or Samuel are fully developed WRs yet.  The Coryell system is not easy on WRs as far as route-trees go and Samuel obviously didn't run many routes at Ohio States while Moore already came in as a limited route-runner (but with the skill-set to vastly improve).  If you want to argue they should start ahead of Smith, I won't argue with that.  I've said that.  But what you guys need to understand is that Smith starting vs Smith not starting will not make much of a difference in how many times Moore/Samuel see the ball.  And that is all I'm saying.  

The only way you are going to see Moore take a larger load of the targets is if you want one of McCaffrey, Olsen, or Funchess to see less targets/snaps.  And that seems like a stretch.  Funchess is inconsistent but he's still our best outside receiver.

But people don't care to look deeper in it.  They just seem to think benching Smith will solve all of our problems.   And I'm not necessarily accusing you of this, but it's another example of our coaching staff getting criticized unfairly.  The proof is in the pudding.  Moore recorded games of 20 and 16 receiving yards the last two weeks.  He recorded games of 29, 59, and 49 receiving yards in the last 3 games Smith played.  So where is the proof that benching Smith will lead to far more Moore production?  Why can't people accept the idea that maybe he just isn't ready yet?

I'll offer an example.  Demaryius Thomas was very comparable coming out of Georgia Tech to DJ Moore.  Obviously DT is 6'3 so it isn't a comparison a lot of people would want to make, but both were strong, fast receivers who excelled at generating YAC but were limited route-runners.  DT only had 22 receptions for 283 yards that season.  Panthers aren't the only team that slowly brings along rookies, especially WRs who might not be strong route-runners in a system that kind of requires it.  So people just need to calm down.  Benching Torrey Smith is not guaranteed to make a difference to Moore's receiving production as seen over the last two weeks, and starting Smith does not prevent Moore from getting touches as a receiver (as proven by the statistics) or as a rusher.

And I get that you said you don't really care about who starts as much as who gets the reps, so this is just also in response to everyone who chooses to blindly bash Rivera and Norv for not benching Smith.

[CRA]

23 minutes ago, Mage said:

Oh come on.  Acting like he was a more productive receiver than Smith is disingenuous.  Moore only had 1 reception for 16 yards in the Bucs game (week after Balt).  39 of his yards came from rushing.  How does Torrey Smith starting at WR prevent Moore from getting those same touches running the ball?  He had 2 rushing attempts that game, which is about on par with what he was getting with Smith started.

Excluding the Cowboys game, Moore averaged 3.3 targets and 2.5 receptions a game with Smith healthy and starting.  Since Smith has been out?  Moore has averaged 4.5 targets and 3.3 receptions a game.  A minimal difference.  Ya'll act like starting or not starting Smith is going to lead to considerably more targets and touches for Moore, but that simply isn't going to happen.  The expectations are unreasonable.  McCaffrey, Olsen, and Funchess are going to take the large share of the targets and touches no matter what.  Even with Smith out of the equation, it's difficult to get Samuel and Moore more involved without sacrificing what they do in the game.  

Smith starting at #2 does not prevent Moore from getting looks inside, outside, or as a rusher.  And quite frankly there is no evidence that Moore or Samuel are fully developed WRs yet.  The Coryell system is not easy on WRs as far as route-trees go and Samuel obviously didn't run many routes at Ohio States while Moore already came in as a limited route-runner (but with the skill-set to vastly improve).  If you want to argue they should start ahead of Smith, I won't argue with that.  I've said that.  But what you guys need to understand is that Smith starting vs Smith not starting will not make much of a difference in how many times Moore/Samuel see the ball.  And that is all I'm saying.  

The only way you are going to see Moore take a larger load of the targets is if you want one of McCaffrey, Olsen, or Funchess to see less targets/snaps.  And that seems like a stretch.  Funchess is inconsistent but he's still our best outside receiver.

But people don't care to look deeper in it.  They just seem to think benching Smith will solve all of our problems.   And I'm not necessarily accusing you of this, but it's another example of our coaching staff getting criticized unfairly.  The proof is in the pudding.  Moore recorded games of 20 and 16 receiving yards the last two weeks.  He recorded games of 29, 59, and 49 receiving yards in the last 3 games Smith played.  So where is the proof that benching Smith will lead to far more Moore production?  Why can't people accept the idea that maybe he just isn't ready yet?

I'll offer an example.  Demaryius Thomas was very comparable coming out of Georgia Tech to DJ Moore.  Obviously DT is 6'3 so it isn't a comparison a lot of people would want to make, but both were strong, fast receivers who excelled at generating YAC but were limited route-runners.  DT only had 22 receptions for 283 yards that season.  Panthers aren't the only team that slowly brings along rookies, especially WRs who might not be strong route-runners in a system that kind of requires it.  So people just need to calm down.  Benching Torrey Smith is not guaranteed to make a difference to Moore's receiving production as seen over the last two weeks, and starting Smith does not prevent Moore from getting touches as a receiver (as proven by the statistics) or as a rusher.

But I'm sure this will get ignored so people can continue to bash Rivera and Turner and everyone else because that is the cool thing to do on this forum.

as I stated....it isn't just about Moore.  But about Moore and Samuel. Even Wright to a degree. 

The 2 highest scoring games our offense produced? The 2 weeks Smith was out of the lineup and the rookie took big roles in the offense.   That wasn't a coincidence.   They change what the defense defends.  Because they are playmakers that can make plays from any position on the field (be that, the backfield, short screens, short slants or challenging downfield).  That is 2 that pose threats Smith doesn't.   The rookies merely being on the field stresses the opposing defense in ways that early on the sets of Fun and Smith simply don't do. 

Baltimore the rookies had 10 touches for 157 yards

Tampa the rookies had 5 touches for 106 yards and 2 TDs. 

Those again, were the most offensively productive games we have had...and those happen to be the 2 were we got the ball to our rookie playmakers. 

and we were forced to increase there reps because of Smith's injury. 

It doesn't even pass the eyeball test.  That is why some stats also are bunk like some of the ones where you mentioned just looking at Moore's targets.  Defenses simply play us different and our opportunities are different when Norv is scheming up 2 WR sets feature Fun and Smith vs the sets feature Moore and Samuel we saw in Tampa and Balt.   Just a different ball game for opposing defenses and why our offense looked better.   The mere fact you have Samuel and Moore running motion around the backfield helped our O when Smith was out.  It impacts how defenses play.  Things like that don't show up on a stat sheet but we saw in impact games.  And the handoffs to Moore and Samuel were much more effective in the games Smith was out.  You can't say it is all the same. Why? Because they weren't just brought in to get the end around like earlier games where it is more obvious when it comes.   They can then tease the threat all game.  

I throw out Pitt because our OL prevented any evaluation of our O IMO

I'm not advocating for Moore to have a poo ton of targets.  I'm merely stating what Moore and Samuel got while Smith was out is what they need to keep.   They need to be on the field.  Having playmakers on the field stresses a D.  Even when they don't get a touch. 

 

[panthers55]

44 minutes ago, CRA said:

I don't care who gets the start tag.  Dont mind if Smith even gets that being the vet. 

but until his injury, the reps in regards to Smith, Moore, Samuel, Wright were not well distributed IMO.  I think the injury only confirms that is at least true going forward. 

Honestly until the injury, DJ hadn't done much. After the fumbles at Washington and special team's gaffe he didn't deserve many touches right away. Frankly he hasn't done much lately either. Samuels is electric but it took time to ease him back into the mix after his heart issues. He has only been 100% for 3 or 4 games. So honestly I don't think the mix was that bad given the players involved and where they were at. Of the bunch I would be giving Samuels more opportunities as long as he can handle the added work. DJ is an up and down guy. Sometimes looks dynamic, other times not so much.

[Mr. Scot]

There are three receivers right now that I definitely feel are more valuable to the offense than Torrey Smith. Devin Funchess, Curtis Samuel and Jarius Wright. if Smith is taking reps away from any one of those three, I'm not a fan of it.

DJ Moore is still somewhat raw, but he's getting there. Even if most of his best plays are gadget plays, he still has more potential than Smith to make a big play.

[ichigo1057]

On 11/14/2018 at 11:52 AM, mc52beast said:

How is it Hurneys fault that Poe isn’t playing up to expectations??? Can understand being blamed for the Smith signing 

In all honesty, I feel like the whole Washington as the DC could be the major issue for the defense considering that even our star defensive players aren't playing up to there usual standards. I'm willing to give Poe more time (see what he can do the rest of the season and next season) to evaluate how good or bad signing him was.

[iamhubby1]

    Cam only throws about 30 passes a game. We have Olsen, McC, Funch, Samuel, and Wright. With Smith, and DJ pushing for targets. 

 

    No one is going to outdistance anyone else in regards to targets. One game it will be McC, the next game it will be Olsen, or Samuel, or...you get the point.

 

    We can hang our hat on the fact that for the first time in his career. Cam has legitimate weapons. And that he, and Norv seem to have gotten their groove on.

[Captain Morgan]

Jourdan Rodrigue‏Verified account @JourdanRodrigue 1m1 minute ago

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Torrey Smith rule OUT for Sunday.

[jfra78]

52 minutes ago, Captain Morgan said:

Jourdan Rodrigue‏Verified account @JourdanRodrigue 1m1 minute ago

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Torrey Smith rule OUT for Sunday.

maybe next week

[TheSpecialJuan]

2 hours ago, Captain Morgan said:

Jourdan Rodrigue‏Verified account @JourdanRodrigue 1m1 minute ago

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Torrey Smith rule OUT for Sunday.

Not good, Smith's speed is valuable and stretches defenses.

[rayzor]

Take your time, fella

 No need to rush these things.

[RumHam]

HE'S OUT THANK GOD GET CUT THEN GET CUT

[Mr. Scot]

4 hours ago, jfra78 said:

maybe next week

Or next year.