What a lot of folks are missing

[Cyberjag]

Who wants to spread around hate all day? Go outside and experience the sun instead.

[Mesmer]

I'm in class, silly. Plus it's overcast today

[rayzor]

mr. scot...should jake be the quarterback. should we be relying on him? is he the right man for the job?

just because there are people who are "a" problem and not "the" problem doesn't mean that we shouldn't be looking to improve there. fix problems or get someone here who can.

btw...i am under no illusion that an overhauling of some key elements (new QB, new coaching staff, new GM) wouldn't come without growing pains, in fact i expect it. that shouldn't be a deterrent to making those changes.

how long do we wait to see if jake can get back to what made him good? how long do we give fox to see if he can help this team become a consistently winning team? how long do we see if hurney's gambles as a GM can pay off?

does the team not deserve better than what they have right now? don't they deserve to have a quarterback who doens't have to be treated like a rookie and who is more likely to throw an INT than a TD? doesn't the team deserve a coach who is going to push this team to the limits every week and won't accept anything but total victory instead of someone who's goal it is to win 3 out of 4 games?

how long does it take to find out that we need to actually address these problems instead of just admitting that there are problems. sure, admitting them is have the battle but you don't win battles that are only half fought.

there is an awful lot of trying to justify the crap that is allowed here. if there is a problem, you fix it. if you can't fix it then we'll find someone who can.

mediocrity sucks the life out of you. this team has been sitting on the fence for too long. why not make some big changes trying to get off that fence?

my thinking is and has always been, if you see a problem, you fix it. jake has problems. the team has problems. it doesn't do any good to try and cover them up or downplay them.

if jake and fox aren't the problems, then what are? if we aren't fixing problems then we need to get someone who will.

i also don't care that other teams in the league are struggling. the goal isn't to just be better than the ones with the worst records. the goal is to be the best. those that are the best fix things. there have been improvements in some areas but there are others that i don't think the team has the moxie to change. fox has said that no matter how poorly jake does, he will still be the starting quarterback. fox/hurney made a gamble in extending his contract after such a poor performance and from the looks of it, that gamble is blowing up in their face. crap...he's on pace to throw 34 INTS and 16 TDs this year! how in the world does someone who is capable of that deserve an extension or any vote of confidence? i could understand it more if he was young and just learning the ropes but the guy is a seasoned vet! he is a lot closer to the end of his career than the beginning or even middle of his career. he relied mainly on those "intangibles" as a leader on the field that we often felt so good about but it doesn't look like those are even there any more. he has lost confidence. worst yet is that his two favorite targets are losing it. smith is losing confidence and moose is losing his ability. what is fox's response? stay the course. jake says that something they are working on, trying to get the long ball to moose isn't working and he says that isn't going to keep us from trying it. flat out insanity.

this team has some huge tendencies in playcalling and in performance that are causing the biggest problems people have this offense figured out and have figured out how to not just beat the running game but force jake into panic situations that he just can't handle anymore. there are many situations that teams just know what our offense is going to do. if this coaching staff and these players that we are relying on can't make the adjustments that we need, then we need to get them to fix it or replace them with someone who can.

[Cyberjag]

Before you make changes on the field, shouldn't you see if you can adapt to what you have through better game management and play calling?

[Snake]

Sort of goes back to my discussion of Fox being in "win now" mode.

I really wonder if a lot of folks have considered that starting at "square one" could very easily set us back a year or two. The notion that a new guy comes in and immediately turns it all around is a tad unrealistic.

Does it happen sometimes? Sure, but it's the exception, not the rule.

I favor John Fox being fired if results and conditions dictate such, but folks shouldn't favor this idea based on the belief that Bill Cowher, Rob Ryan or anyone else will sweep in like a savior and everything will suddenly be sunshine and roses.

In most circumstances that is correct but I dont think this team is as bad as they seem IMO. The Falcons have done a 180 with a new coach under the helm and a new OC with the offense. The saints did the same thing. If I were in the GM and had to make a decision on what to do after this season I would look at it this way

#1. How well did our team play and how many wins.

#2. Did they get hot at the end of the season or fall off.

#3. Did the coach fix the problems by the seasons end or did new ones

pop up?

#4 Is the team responding to the coach? Or has he lost the team?

#5 Is there a coach or coordinator out there that has the potential to be as

good or better?

[rayzor]

Before you make changes on the field, shouldn't you see if you can adapt to what you have through better game management and play calling?

at this point, maybe. i just wonder where you draw the line?

here is one problem i have: is the goal of management now to try and just prevent mistakes? is it to work around an obvious weakness of the team rather than it's strengths? if what you have on the field is holding you back, wouldn't a better solution be to improve that area instead of trying to make it not quite so bad?

if jake can't seem to get his act together teams are going to feel free to stack the box and force jake to throw/make mistakes. they aren't afraid of him anymore. the panthers are more afraid that he is going to have performances like he did against the cardinals and eagles.

[Kevin Greene]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Scot

Sort of goes back to my discussion of Fox being in "win now" mode.

I really wonder if a lot of folks have considered that starting at "square one" could very easily set us back a year or two. The notion that a new guy comes in and immediately turns it all around is a tad unrealistic.

Does it happen sometimes? Sure, but it's the exception, not the rule.

I favor John Fox being fired if results and conditions dictate such, but folks shouldn't favor this idea based on the belief that Bill Cowher, Rob Ryan or anyone else will sweep in like a savior and everything will suddenly be sunshine and roses.

In most circumstances that is correct but I dont think this team is as bad as they seem IMO. If I were in the GM and had to make a decision on what to do after this season I would look at it this way

#1. How well did our team play and how many wins.

#2. Did they get hot at the end of the season or fall off.

#3. Did the coach fix the problems by the seasons end or did new ones

pop up?

#4 Is the team responding to the coach? Or has he lost the team?

#5 Is there a coach or coordiator out there that has the potiental to be as

good or better?

I think it's interesting if you looked back 2 years ago, there was no franchise worse off than the Falcons. Franchise QB indicted, coach gone, coach you wanted blew you off. Enter Mike Smith, draft a Franchise QB, sign a Micheal Turner. Instant success.

We cannot compete in a division with Ryan, Brees and maybe soon Freeman with our current roster and coaching.

[CRA]

Before you make changes on the field, shouldn't you see if you can adapt to what you have through better game management and play calling?

John Fox has been the coach of this team for how many years? Coaching is not going to be the easiest fix to the problems...the easiest fix is a QB who simply is willing to protect the ball better.....that is the first of many steps in the right direction. A John Fox team can not survive turning the ball over. That doesn't mean that QB is the answer....it will cut back on a huge chuck of the problems.....plenty of those turnovers are on Jake despite the pressure he has faced.

[ChucktownK]

Just don't go into it with the notion that fixing that one issue fixes everything.

Ya know what Mr. Scott? It's their mentality and their cohesion. They need to get back to playin' Woodsball together to get their mojo back. It's obvious they are ALL on a different wavelength right now. You can't force the collective mind.

[unicar15]

To start with, let me quote from a post that says a lot of the same things I've been thinking...

It highlights an issue that's fairly common in fans, that being the "lottery mentality" when approaching team issues.

"Lottery mentality" is essentially the notion that one single thing - the proverbial 'winning ticket' - can cure everything that ails us. Right now, there's a load of that kind of thinking going around the fanbase on this board.

The tickets of choice? Backup quarterbacks are one of the most often purchased, just ahead of new coordinators and coaches. Are these things a good move sometimes? Sure, but they're rarely the cure-alls that people make them out to be.

And that's the thing that so many people are missing when they look at the 2009 Panthers. Too many think they've found the problem, when more often than not what they actually see is a problem.

Some examples:

Jake Delhomme's passing issues are a problem, not the problem.

Jeff Davidson's playcalling is a problem, not the problem.

Ball security issues - including those from previously reliable guys like DeAngelo Williams - are a problem, not the problem.

Lack of a complementary receiving threat is a problem, not the problem.

Offensive line weaknesses are a problem, not the problem.

Defensive struggles against the run are a problem, not the problem.

Even Danny Crossman's special teams coaching is a problem, not the problem.

Way too many people here think that we can fix just one of those things and it will all be all right. Unlikely. It'd sure be nice if it was that easy, but in the real world it just isn't that simple. People have been playing the "this team is too talented to be this bad" card, and based on that notion limiting their thinking to a single issue, the "one thing" that's at the root of it all. This, as the old saying goes, is missing the forest for the trees.

Reality is that every team in the league, even the Redskins, Lions and Bucs, contains players that are the best in the world at what they do. Every team has talent, and loads of it. Every team also has issues, and plenty of them. The nature of the game is that someone has to win, and someone has to lose.

Truthfully, the line that separates which team does what is often so razor thin you can barely see it. Teams rarely get to be bad based on weakness at solely one position or one aspect of the game, including the leadership of a coach or QB. Those sorts of things can keep a good team from reaching its potential, but by themselves they just aren't enough to turn a good team into a bad one.

Bottom Line: The Panthers have multiple issues right now, and fixing them is not so simple as benching a guy here or there. So logically speaking, if you want to sound off about a problem you see, by all means do so.

Just don't go into it with the notion that fixing that one issue fixes everything.

There can't ever be ONE singular problem with a football team that has struggled like we have this season. However, there can be a problem that contributes to the fall more than the others.

Jake's inability to pass the football is been our biggest problem since the end of last season. We run to set up...the run. We have no passing game with maybe the most dynamic receiver in football. We have no passing game with a RB that could catch 60 balls in a season easily. Why don't we have a passing game? Its the quarterback....I have no problem with Jeff Davidson's play calls because when it comes down to it there isn't just one option on the field for Jake. There are 2, 3, sometimes 4 options for where Jake can throw it and the guy has thrown more picks in 5 games than some QBs throw in an entire season.

Picks in crucial situations, picks that go for TDs, picks to receivers that are DRAPED with defenders. The guy is NOT a good QB and for anyone to come on here and say that he isn't the majority of the problem for our football team is laughable.

I've said this since the end of last season...we have as much talent on this football team as anyone else in the league EXCEPT where it matters...at QB.

Top 3 OT

Top 5 OL as a whole

Top 5 WR

Top 3 RB

A second string RB that would start for most teams

A good possession receiver at 2nd string WR

On Defense:

A 50 million dollar CB

Top 3 DE

Top 3 MLB

Top 10 OLB

We have as much or more talent on this team than the Bears, the Bengals, Packers to name a few. ALL of those teams are ahead of us because they have a LEGITIMATE QB that is going to make plays to win the game. Those teams would KILLLLLL for our running attack. If you give our RBs and our OL to any of those teams they are an instant super bowl contender. With all the talent we have we shouldn't be worried about the schedule that we play this year. But we are because Jake Delhomme is not in the same LEAGUE as probably 50% of the QBs in the NFL.

[Pantherman]

Bottom line Jake is the heart of this team. but jake last sunday had the worst game of his carreer with the panthers agaist a crappy bucs D. That Just shows you Jake is no longer able to play even as a game mangement QB for this team. Jake is the Key the key to this team. If Jake still had passion for this team. he would have got his troops together and start playing better. but that has yet to happen. and you can just see it in these inteviews Jake does after these games. Jake has not done anything to help rally his team mates. People say Jake is what is good for this team. Well of if some of you seeing Jake is key to this team by him have a game agaist the worst D in the league and having 2 ints and only 65 yards passing. Then there is somthing wrong with this picture. It is time for fox to pull the trigger on jake and give moore a chance to prove his stuff.

[Pimpdaddy]

Ive never been that big of a Dulhomme fan and always thought it was pure luck that he had the success hes had... I dont think hes totally the problem but he is the biggest leader on the team and he is floundering. The QB is the most important player on the team for a reason. The other problem is the playbook on both sides of the ball... they'r stale. It all traces back to Fox's philosophy which was good early, now, everybody knows how to exploit this team inspite of the talent we have. If you think things are going to change while Fox is here think again... its going to be the same next year.... I smell discounted PSL's.

Just think everybody on the team quit buying into Fox's plan. Look at Fisher... think he lost the Titans, good coach but its time for a change in Tennessee, same in Charlotte.

[top dawg]

Sorry, Scottie. I agree with your overall thesis in general, and as pertaining to a contingent in the Huddle, but there are us who do know a little about football and are not prone to making snap judgments based on simplistic rationale, but (perhaps, ironically) use simple rationale to make judgments based on/over a period of time. So, I am going to spare you all of the arguments that have been made pro/against Fox/Jake and others over the years; and, how many people quite rationally said WTF when 34-year-old Jake got another nice payday and extension after a totally abysmal performance where our coaches were on the sideline with a (WTH-is-going-on?) confused look on their faces in front of a national audience at our house in the playoffs; and, the fact that some of the problems (e.g., the lack of a real threat at WR opposite of Smitty, and/or at least the will to play potential threats for whatever reason) that have been a problem, have been a problem for years---notwithstanding a 12-4 season last year, which happened to be the "up year" on the Panthers cyclical roller coaster of success, which meant this year would be a "down year" judging from the history of this organization. Like I said, basically I am going to spare you all of that...

Basically it comes down to a couple of simple sayings:

1. If you keep doing what you're doing, you're going to keep getting what you're getting.

2. If you want a change, then the first thing that you must change is your mind.

--------------Now, on to other related tangents--------------------

If you have a big problem, to me, you have to take gradual steps to fix the problem (i.e., break the big problem up into smaller problems and then tackle (pun intended) the problems piece by piece.

Now of course there are different ways to tackle a problem. Some people may work from the smaller problems towards the bigger problems, while others like to tackle the bigger problems and move their way down the line. Some may want to use an H-bomb, while others may want to use a scalpel.

To me, the trick is to be able to analyze a problem and adapt to the specifics because each problem has a life of its own.

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On a football team, you got to have solid QB play, and solid coaching to have success. Solid QB play (where, at the very least, the QB makes good decisions and uses sound judgment), IMHO, is the capstone of any great football team. A coach who is able to adapt to the conditions and flow of the game are just as important. Like the Bible basically calls for us to love God and love our neighbor, and says all the laws hinge on those two, so does the success of a football team hinge upon the success of coaching and solid QB play. If you don't have those all the other stuff breaks apart fast.

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Like the song says, "It's a thin line between love and hate", so is there a razor thin line between success and failure of a team (like you said), especially when your team suffers from inconsistency, which is a reflection upon the coaching.

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After years of being on a roller coaster---which is beginning to feel eerily like being on a rubber boat without oars or a sail from many fans' perspectives---all I can say to Panthers' management is that it's time to piss or get off the pot.

[Lumps]

Ok so our team has a lot of problems.

But in your opinion what is our team's biggest problem?

Exactly.

That is all we are saying, not that he's the sole reason. You just hear us bitch about him more because he is our biggest problem right now. Yes his O line sucks a lot, so throw it away like any decent qb would do. Or like any sucky QB would do...take the takle and DON'T fumble it doing down. Those two tips alone would spare us how many turnovers?

The QB is paid a lot for a reason, he has the most responsibilities, he has the easiest job to really f**k up what he is doing. That is just the way of the game.

Whether you like Jake or not, I think it's agreed we have to have a solid QB to contend with the other teams. If Jake continues and we win 5 games, do you want him to start next year....does anyone? (this is a serious question).

I will give Jake the rest of the season before I want him gone, and the only reason I am doing that is because he is known to comeback. So only time will tell...