For the Fire Rivera Group

[DaveThePanther2008]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

I'm not in the "Fire Rivera" group. I'm in what I guess you could call the "Question Rivera" group, meaning that I'm not outright advocating his firing but I think it's legitimate to question whether he can win a championship at this point. His performance the last time we reached the Super Bowl certainly wasn't encouraging in that regard.

That said, the notion that you can't fire a head coach because "there's nothing better out there" is silly. Every good head coach in the league right now was an unknown at some point, and every single season there are good candidates available.

Is it a risk? Of course it's a risk. So is hanging on to a head coach who hasn't put it all together yet. This same logic that's being used now could have been used to hang on to John Fox over a guy who at the time was just someone who'd interviewed with nine different teams and been turned down.

Based on what I'm hearing, those same folks now saying Rivera shouldn't be fired would have pointed to his first two seasons as evidence that firing John Fox was a mistake.

You might wanna think about that for a second.

As to candidates...

Dan Campbell: Assistant Head Coach / TE Coach, Saints

Campbell is a Bill Parcells protege who's received lots of positive buzz for his football knowledge and his coaching ability. One coach stated that it's not a matter of if Campbell becomes a head coach in the NFL, but when (he's been interviewed already).

John DeFilippo: Offensive Coordinator, Vikings

Another name that's already received head coaching interviews, DeFilippo has loads of head coaching buzz. He's gotten lots of credit for helping develop Carson Wentz as well as helping Nick Foles be at his best for last year's Super Bowl. If you want an offensive head coach, this is arguably the top name right now.

James Bettcher: Defensive Coordinator, Giants

For those who prefer defensive coaches (not that I expect there are many of those) Bettcher is one of the hot names out there. He's considered to be a coach on the rise and is said to have a brilliant football mind. Like the first two, he's already received head coaching attention. Me? I'm not as high on this idea as I'd like to see us try an offensive coach for the first time, but he'd be an option.

Dave Toub: Assistant Head Coach / Special Teams Coach, Chiefs

Not sure if you want an offensive coach or a defensive coach? How about a Special Teams coach? Worked out pretty well for the Ravens when they hired John Harbaugh. Toub has been considered by many to be the best special teams coach in the league for quite a while and has recently gotten some head coaching consideration as well. And hey, why not a guy who can see the picture from a slightly different perspective than others?

Jim Schwartz: Defensive Coordinator, Eagles

Jerry Richardson was never a big fan of retreads, and became even less of one after the disaster of George Seifert. David Tepper might not feel the same way, and Schwartz has been talked about as someone who will probably return to theHead Coach role somewhere down the road. Again, this is not one of my favorite ideas as I prefer we go offense, but he's another viable option.

 

Now mind you, there's a lot of season left so before the year is over, other names could emerge as hot candidates. Likewise, these names could wax or wane depending on their performance. Such things are obviously impossible to predict.

What can be said, though: There will be good, viable candidates. To deny that is just silly. As mentioned before, every successful head coach in the league right now was once an unknown. Believing that you can't take a chance on an unknown would have prevented you from hiring guys like Doug Pederson, Mike Tomlin, Sean Payton and Sean McVay.

Thanks Mr. Scot. 

This was what I was aiming at and with the exception of a few post most just beat the dead horse to fire Rivera without naming anyone they would like to see. 

[Toomers]

8 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

I'm not in the "Fire Rivera" group. I'm in what I guess you could call the "Question Rivera" group, meaning that I'm not outright advocating his firing, but I think it's legitimate to question whether he can won a championship at this point.

That said, the notion that you can't fire a head coach because "there's nothing better out there" is silly. Every good head coach in the league right now was an unknown at some point, and every single season there are good candidates available.

Is it a risk? Of course it's a risk. So is hanging on to a head coach who hasn't put it all together yet. This same logic that's being used now could have been used to hang on to John Fox over a guy who at the time was just someone who'd interviewed with nine different teams and been turned down.

Based on what I'm hearing, those same folks now saying Rivera shouldn't be fired would have pointed to his first two seasons as evidence that firing John Fox was a mistake.

You might wanna think about that for a second.

As to candidates...

Dan Campbell: Assistant Head Coach / TE Coach, Saints

Campbell is a Bill Parcells protege who's received lots of positive buzz for his football knowledge and his coaching ability. One coach stated that it's not a matter of if Campbell becomes a head coach in the NFL, but when (he's been interviewed already).

John DeFilippo: Offensive Coordinator, Vikings

Another name that's already received head coaching interviews, DeFilippo has loads of head coaching buzz. He's gotten lots of credit for helping develop Carson Wentz as well as helping Nick Foles be at his best for last year's Super Bowl. If you want an offensive head coach, this is arguably the top name right now.

James Bettcher: Defensive Coordinator, Giants

For those who prefer defensive coaches (not that I expect there are many of those) Bettcher is one of the hot names out there. He's considered to be a coach on the rise and is said to have a brilliant football mind. Like the first two, he's already received head coaching attention. Me? I'm not as high on this idea as I'd like to see us try an offensive coach for the first time, but he'd be an option.

Dave Toub: Assistant Head Coach / Special Teams Coach, Chiefs

Not sure if you want an offensive coach or a defensive coach? How about a Special Teams coach? Worked out pretty well for the Ravens when they hired John Harbaugh. Toub has been considered by many to be the best special teams coach in the league for quite a while and has recently gotten some head coaching consideration as well. And hey, why not a guy who can see the picture from a slightly different perspective than others?

Jim Schwartz: Defensive Coordinator, Eagles

Jerry Richardson was never a big fan of retreads, and became even less of one after the disaster of George Seifert. David Tepper might not feel the same way, and Schwartz has been talked about as someone who will probably return to theHead Coach role somewhere down the road. Again, this is not one of my favorite ideas as I prefer we go offense, but he's another viable option.

 

Now mind you, there's a lot of season left so before the year is over, other names could emerge as hot candidates. Likewise, these names could wax or wane depending on their performance. Such things are obviously impossible to predict.

What can be said, though: There will be good, viable candidates. To deny that is just silly. As mentioned before, every successful head coach in the league right now was once an unknown. Believing that you can't take a chance on an unknown would have prevented you from hiring guys like Doug Pederson, Mike Tomlin, Sean Payton and Sean McVay.

  And which of those organizations got rid of a successful HC when hiring an unknown coach.  How many teams have gotten rid of a coach who made the playoffs 4 of 5 years. Sort of like firing a GM that did the same. It’s easy to hire a coach coming off an awful stretch. Much different in this case. 

 And thanks for the logical response with names

[Mr. Scot]

18 minutes ago, Toomers said:

  And which of those organizations got rid of a successful HC when hiring an unknown coach.  How many teams have gotten rid of a coach who made the playoffs 4 of 5 years. Sort of like firing a GM that did the same. It’s easy to hire a coach coming off an awful stretch. Much different in this case. 

It's not unheard of. The most recent example would probably have been the Eagles with Andy Reid. Reid was easily the most successful head Coach in Eagles history, but he never won a Super Bowl. Doug Peterson did it in short order.

Mind you, their initial successor to Reid was a poor choice, but if you asked around I doubt there'd be anybody in the organization (or the fanbase) who woukd say it was a mistake to move on from him. Reid, meanwhile, is so far basically the same coach in Kansas City and he was in Philadelphia.

Another example would be the Bucs. There was plenty of outrage when they fired Tony Dungy, all of which subsided when they won the Super Bowl with Jon Gruden. Did Gruden win in a "perfect storm" situation? Maybe, but it can't be denied that he won.

And while it's a slightly different situation, you could also point to Buffalo back in the 90s. The Bills fired future Panthers GM Bill Polian in the wake of back to back Super Bowl appearances, both losses. Replacement GM John Butler took the team to two more, though with the same result. Still, it shows that parting ways from a successful leader isn't automatically a  sentence to mediocrity.

I've said it before. The real question is how many chances you're willing to give Ron Rivera. Bill Cowher took fifteen years to win a championship. Would seven more years of Rivera to get just a single trophy be acceptable?

[juliosantos]

None of us are in the position or get paid to find the next best head coach but we have people we pay to do that.

[juliosantos]

I think chip can make the bed out of cam

[Toomers]

14 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

It's not unheard of. The most recent example would probably have been the Eagles with Andy Reid. Mind you, their initial successor to Reid was a poor choice, but if you asked I doubt there'd be anybody in the organization who regrets dumping Reid at this point. Reid, meanwhile, is so far basically the same coach in Kansas City and he was in Philadelphia.

Another example would be the Bucs. There was plenty of outrage when they fired Tony Dungy, all of which subsided when they won the Super Bowl with Jon Gruden. Did Gruden win in a "perfect storm" situation? Maybe, but it can't be denied that he won.

And while it's a slightly different situation, you could also point to Buffalo back in the 90s. The Bills fired future Panthers GM Bill Polian in the wake of back to back Super Bowl appearances, both losses. Replacement GM John Butler took the team to two more, though with the same result. Still, it shows that parting ways from a successful leader isn't automatically a  sentence to mediocrity.

I've said it before. The question is really  how many chances you're willing to give Ron Rivera. Bill Cowher took fifteen years to win a championship. Would seven more years of Rivera be acceptable?

Well, I would use all those examples as  reason not to do it. 

  Reid to Kelly was a disaster. Hiring a guy 3 years later doesn’t make that move better. They hired Peterson after an awful stretch with Kelly. 

 Gruden May have won a SB, but he destroyed that team over time. And getting to play your old team didn’t hurt. They still haven’t recovered.

  And after Polians players started getting old, they fell off. And after one more SB, haven’t won a playoff game since 1995. I don’t call that good. 

   Unless you can find me a better option, he hasn’t warranted this “anyone would be better” stance many have. By the end of the year, things could be totally different. I’m not ready to burn it down after one loss. 

[raz]

what, philly just won the super bowl     where we at?    you afraid of being bad for a minute.  so what?

[raz]

we have 0 hope of winning the super bowl this year.   those odds go down more next year.    we old.   

[Mr. Scot]

22 minutes ago, Toomers said:

Well, I would use all those examples as  reason not to do it. 

  Reid to Kelly was a disaster. Hiring a guy 3 years later doesn’t make that move better. They hired Peterson after an awful stretch with Kelly. 

 Gruden May have won a SB, but he destroyed that team over time. And getting to play your old team didn’t hurt. They still haven’t recovered.

  And after Polians players started getting old, they fell off. And after one more SB, haven’t won a playoff game since 1995. I don’t call that good. 

   Unless you can find me a better option, he hasn’t warranted this “anyone would be better” stance many have. By the end of the year, things could be totally different. I’m not ready to burn it down after one loss. 

Hiring Chip Kelly was a mistake. Letting go of Andy Reid wasn't.

And if you think firing Ron Rivera is a tough sell, imagine the arguments that it took to justify firing Andy Reid. Reid was the winningest coach in Eagles history, had a stretch where the Eagles were annually in the NFC championship and also had a Super Bowl appearance to his credit.

And yet they didn't win a championship until after they let him go.

Any suggestion that the Eagles would be better off now if they had never let go of Reid is a pretty empty argument. If you could find a single Eagles fan who'd rather have Reid than Doug Pederson, I'd be impressed.

 

[Toomers]

26 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Hiring Chip Kelly was a mistake. Letting go of Andy Reid wasn't.

And if you think firing Ron Rivera is a tough sell, imagine the arguments that it took to justify firing Andy Reid. Reid was the winningest coach in Eagles history, had a stretch where the Eagles were annually in the NFC championship and also had a Super Bowl appearance to his credit.

And yet they didn't win a championship until after they let him go.

Any suggestion that the Eagles would be better off now if they had never let go of Reid is a pretty empty argument. If you could find a single Eagles fan who'd rather have Reid than Doug Pederson, I'd be impressed.

 

So your one example is to hire a disaster and hope we hit on the NEXT guy? That’s quite a reach. When Kelly is the one that’s relevant. Not Pederson. They made a mistake. Getting lucky the next time changes nothing. Pederson wasn’t hirerd to replace a successful coach. He took over for a guy fired mid-season. 

[mc52beast]

3 hours ago, CPF4LIFE said:

Yes they are in place.....AFTER THEY INTERVIEW.  Which means Tep would have to make the decision to fire Rivera first. New coach takes over after this season. Jesus christ this isnt rocket science. 

It’s pretty simple... you want Ron gone. Who do you want to replace him? Don’t bring up Tepper, he has nothing to do with this discussion. Who do YOU want coaching the team? It ain’t rocket science 

[mc52beast]

Ron is very good at getting guys to play for him, even when it seems like there’s nothing to play for. He knows defense as much or more than most coaches in the League. 

But he sucks at managing a game, he sucks at player evaluation, he sucks when it comes to putting guys on the field who should be playing vs starters like Kalil.

I just don’t see anyone right now who could come in and do a better job.

[Mr. Scot]

6 minutes ago, Toomers said:

So your one example is to hire a disaster and hope we hit on the NEXT guy? That’s quite a reach. When Kelly is the one that’s relevant. Not Pederson. They made a mistake. Getting lucky the next time changes nothing. Pederson wasn’t hirerd to replace a successful coach. He took over for a guy fired mid-season. 

That's a lot like arguing that we shouldn't have moved on from Jake Delhomme to Cam Newton because we had to deal with Jimmy Clausen for a while.

You can't say Pederson doesn't count just because there was someone inbetween. Even with Kelly as the interim, the Eagles are still better off now than if they had kept Reid. I seriously doubt any Eagle fan would dispute that.

But since we don't have any Eagle fans around at the moment, I'll phrase the question to you. No spin, no moving the goalposts, no denying that Doug Pederson doesn't matter. Just a straight yes or no.

Should the Eagles have kept Andy Reid instead of moving on?

 

[Toomers]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

That's a lot like arguing that we shouldn't have moved on from Jake Delhomme to Cam Newton because we had to deal with Jimmy Clausen for a while.

You can't say Pederson doesn't count just because there was someone inbetween. Even with Kelly as the interim, the Eagles are still better off now than if they had kept Reid. I seriously doubt any Eagle fan would dispute that.

But since we don't have any Eagle fans around at the moment, I'll phrase the question to you. No spin, no moving the goalposts, no denying that Doug Pederson doesn't matter. Just a straight yes or no.

Should the Eagles have kept Andy Reid instead of moving on?

 

 Yes. In 2013, the Eagles should have not gotten rid off Andy Reid to hire Chip Kelly. 

  Using your logic, you can justify getting rid of any coach, eventually. Sooner or later, some other coach will do well too. 

Now, your turn. Do you think the chances we improve if we fire Rivera are greater than the chances we get worse?