4 Simple question for Jake defenders.

[thennek]

I think the Matt Moore 'question' will be answered this offseason when his current contract expires. If the Panthers try to re-sign him, then they think he has potential. If they let him go, then they obviously think he is not even worthy of being a backup. It would not surprise me to see an all new QB core next year.

[bleys]

DeAngelo/Stew:

5.7 y/c against Atl

5.5 y/c against Tampa

4.5 y/c against Dallas

I think we both agree that those two did a great job when called upon in those 3 games.

Now for the other two. The stats in Philly are very misleading....

1st Q - 4.5 y/c against Philly

and the end of the half 3.8 y/c at point in the game. At that point Jake had sabatoaged the game and was pulled. Philly was up 31-10. Jake was pulled in the 3rd and the game was over....there was 1 run play prior to him being pulled in the 3rd.

So again, all in all. Outside the Washington game where the run was bottled up for the majority of the game...the OL/RBs have been there in that aspect...

the lack of production production from Williams and Stewart can't be used....because the one game they were bottled up...Carolina won. The Philly game is misleading unless you breakdown the stats a tad more. Jake and Davidson limited them from doing more...but they were doing there job and should have been allowed to do more.

So what you've just told me is that it's not all Jake. Pass protection, play calling, and other factors have been an issue.. Our OLine being the primary reason we are lacking. Either we can't run or protect, or play calling has hurt us severely...

Jake, alone, is not the problem...

and I wouldn't go around saying TB(31st) and ATL(23rd) means our run game has been great.. Esp TB.. Even Dallas(17th).. Washington stopped us at 22nd?

[CRA]

So what you've just told me is that it's not all Jake. Pass protection, play calling, and other factors have been an issue.. Our OLine being the primary reason we are lacking. Either we can't run or protect, or play calling has hurt us severely...

Jake, alone, is not the problem...

no, what I told you was Davidson and Jake are the problem...and they are the reason Williams and Stewart haven't blown up. You said the run wasn't there...the run was there in every game and only contained in a win against Washington. Davidson and Jake have taken our duo out of games. You are trying to pin part of Jake's problems on them not running well.....the record shows they have run very well for Jake. Jake/Davidson are the problem.

You can take the we can't run out of your Jake defense. In the 3 losses the duo has been there producing well for Jake when called upon.

[bleys]

no, what I told you was Davidson and Jake are the problem...and they are the reason Williams and Stewart haven't blown up. You said the run wasn't there...the run was there in every game and only contained in a win against Washington. Davidson and Jake have taken our duo out of games. You are trying to pin part of Jake's problems on them not running well.....the record shows they have run very well for Jake. Jake/Davidson are the problem. The duo has run very well....until the Panther take them out of it.

You can take the we can't run out of your Jake defense. In the 3 losses the duo has been there producing well for Jake when called upon.

I'm pinning a lot Jake's problems on the OLine... we got off on a tangent.. but you're right, against TB(31st), ATL(23rd), Dallas(17th).. Washington stopped us at 22nd? The signs are there to get our run game shut down. With that said and put to the side, the point you all are making is that if we get a new QB everything will be better..

Until we get our OLine in shape, play calling improved, other receivers stepping up and creating mismatches, benching Jake for anyone else isn't going to help as much as you all seem to believe....

[CRA]

I'm pinning a lot Jake's problems on the OLine... we got off on a tangent.. but you're right, against TB(31st), ATL(23rd), Dallas(17th).. Washington stopped us at 22nd? The signs are there to get our run game shut down. With that said and put to the side, the point you all are making is that if we get a new QB everything will be better..

Until we get our OLine in shape, play calling improved, other receivers stepping up and creating mismatches, benching Jake for anyone else isn't going to help as much as you all seem to believe....

I don't think a new QB solves all the problems. I also don't pin it all on Jake b/c it isn't all his fault.

However, the majority falls on Jake. Then after that you can look at Davidson and Fox. Then after that you can look at the OL and WRs. To an extent the WRs have always been a problem for whatever reason so that hasn't changed. Jake however imo is clearly a slightly different QB now....and that slight change makes him unqualified imo to lead a Fox offense.

Fewer turnovers could have lead to more wins. If you want to argue Jake is a better QB than the other guys I can actually accept that....but he is also willing to make too many costly mistakes. IMO, you can put a less skilled QB in who is willing to not shoot the team in the foot and basically give away games and points requiring oppoents not to even have to move the ball for points. That would have probably earned Carolina a slightly better record thus far imo. The rest of the team is talented enough to win.

IMO, the mental aspect of this game is more important than skills/talent/experience at times. I think the AZ game ended Jake's career when we look back after he retires. I think it broke his confidence and his age and arm have him making poor choices when that is factored in. On paper he is the best guy to win....but that isn't playing out in games.

[Mr. Scot]

Mr. S a few years ago I would have said he was a above avg. Game manager.

With the right piece around him he could make plays and somtimes win games with his passing.

My point now is as a game manager your most important job is too not turn over the ball. Well we all know that has change for Jake.

So if he has never been elite and is not getting the job done as a game manager? Why is he still starting.

This single decsion will cost Fox and maybe Hurney their jobs. If you have too defend your QB every Mon. pressor their is a problem with your QB. It already seem like he is losing other players because his loyaty too Jake is becoming a cancer on this team.

Delhomme is a gunslinger. He's not a game manager, and never has been (nor should he be) :nonod:

Dan Henning tried to turn Delhomme into a game manager in 2005. The result was a stale offense that didn't really ignite again until they let it get wide open. If you doubt that, ask the Bears.

I've said repeatedly, and will say again, you do not want a game manager at the center of a John Fox offense. It's already conservative enough as it is. Put a game manager back there rather than a gambler and you'll see it go stale again just like it did in 05.

[Mr. Scot]

BTW, if anybody really thinks that Delhomme gets special treatment and you want to know why, just listen to Jake's teammates, not the HC. Right after that Bucs game, DeAngelo Williams emphatically said that Jake was the leader of this offense in every way. Like it or not, the players want him running the show, and that means more than what the fans, media, or even the HC thinks.

Very salient point.

Moore is #2 until Feeley gets the playbook down, Fox said that is whats going to happen.

I've seen no indication that this is true.

Feeley got a 'crash course' that started over a month ago. If it's a month later and he still doesn't know enough to be #2, I'm not sure I want him there.

[Mr. Scot]

This is the NFL. A coach lives and dies by wins and losses. All this "loyalty" crap is just that, crap. In the cut throat business of NFL head coaching, you play to win, always, unless your career is over and you're just phoning it in.

And Fox isn't doing that. Neither is Delhomme. If you were able to fire John Fox, how long do you think he'd be unemployed? People were willing to give Mangini a shot... I mean, come on, Fox is very, very valuable in the available coaches pool. Al Davis would risk and anuerism to have him work magic on the Raiders like he did with the Panthers. Add the Browns, Texans, Jaguars, Chiefs, Bills and Rams to that list. Probably a couple more.

And Jake wouldn't be sitting at home unemployed next year either. Bet on it.

Very good post.

As I've said before, it doesn't matter who we the fans think is the best option at QB. Only what Fox thinks matters. Whether you agree or not - and I'm one who doesn't - John Fox still believes that Jake is the best option at QB right now.

Only a complete idiot would deliberately keep a man in place who could cost him his job. Fox is no idiot.

Again, whether you agree with the decision or not, the notion that Fox is making this decision based on anything other than what he really believes is best is ludicrous to the point of being goofy.

[Mr. Scot]

When a team goes on the skids, the first thing that usually gets said is "Fire the Quarterback." Why? Because it takes the least thought and energy.

QB throwing a lot of interceptions? It's all his fault, gotta be. Team not winning? QB is screwing it up.

Next, a few people will move a few neurons around and put a wee bit more thought to it and come up with "Fire the Coach!" Everything runs through the coach, right, so let's fire him and that jerk of a quarterback, too, while we're at it.

But man, anyone who has ever played anything more than fantasy football or Madden knows is that problems like Carolina had at the beginning of the season are much more complex than can be laid on a single person's shoulders. No matter how much some idiot wants to do that.

Look at our discourse around here lately. Even with the last two wins, there has been someone to scapegoat after each game. Jake's a constant, Fox and Hurney, too. Pep's been a big one this year, Godfrey is a popular one right now, Smitty as well. Heck, I remember threads about how we should trade Johnathan Stewart not too long ago.

Really, what gives? Should we just line everyone up and cut a pink slip to every third player in line? What about pack in the season now after two wins, hire a U-Haul truck for the coach and start tuning in to watch Falcons games instead?

Give me a break. You want to know what? It's something that I believe makes some people on this board physically sick -- we've won games now, with all of the same players in place. And guess what? The team is actually getting better, believe it or not. The problems are being worked out and Fox might pull a rabbit outta his hat before the season's over.

Hell, I'm going to keep watching, and I sure hope he does. Why? Because this is my favorite team and I always want them to win. But I'm also an adult and have realized that sometimes your team loses one. I'm big enough to go on about my life and wait for the next week.

Any thoughts of "Man, that guy's game sucked this week," or "We looked a little weak in the secondary" are just watercooler conversation material. But man, some of you folks want to see blood, you act like the failures of a player on a sports team were a personal let down to you and you deserve revenge.

Get a grip. Pull for your team, man up and take the lumps in loss and enjoy the wins. But let it go, and don't salivate over your next chance to be a star and start your very own "Fire Jake" "Fire Fox" or "Fire Everyone" threads (supplies limited, call now to get your very own!).

I actually had a whole thread in mind on an idea like this. You beat me to it

I may still do it, but I'll quote you.

[koolkatluke]

Fixed... and you think Delhomme is to be expected to win games without his #1 receiver, a run game, and obviously I have to assume a #2,3,4 receiver since we have no threat there... This, is truly amazing...

However you expect Moore to do that is beyond me.

The guy said our run game was successful minus the Washington game. Obviously, my only point there was to show our run game has been lacking.

All of this goes back to our OLine being the bigger issue, whether run or pass...

Thanks for backing me up on that one...

Again I will give you the Philly and the Redskin game as the oline fault. But even when Jake has had the time he has made bad decsion or been so inaccurate with the ball. He has the worst Int's to pass ratio and I didn't even know they kept that stat. Question have you ever seen Jake throw away a ball too aviod a sack? It's a simple thing good QB do but I can't remeber seeing Jake do it. Either he takes a sack or throws a pick.

Now I'll agree the Oline has been a issue but Jake has been the bigger issue. As a QB you've got to have some kind of pocket presence. Jake seem too lack in that skill. Why is it every talking head can see Jake's issues but you act blind too the facts?

[koolkatluke]

Delhomme is a gunslinger. He's not a game manager, and never has been (nor should he be) :nonod:

Dan Henning tried to turn Delhomme into a game manager in 2005. The result was a stale offense that didn't really ignite again until they let it get wide open. If you doubt that, ask the Bears.

I've said repeatedly, and will say again, you do not want a game manager at the center of a John Fox offense. It's already conservative enough as it is. Put a game manager back there rather than a gambler and you'll see it go stale again just like it did in 05.

Most of the time I agree with you Mr. S but Jake a Gunslinger???

He may tried too be Brett frave but he is not. Jake best season have come when we had a running game and the defense was top 10. Sounds more like a gamemanager too me.

[koolkatluke]

Koolkat, you're swinging at phantoms here.

Fox has always shot for two first rate running backs, one battering ram and one slashing type. It keeps a defense caught between the warp and weft of the game.

And I don't think that we'd rather have Forte than Stewart as the complimentary back to DWill, do you? Really? I mean, maybe on a fantasy team, but not on a real team.

This team, and the coach, don't suck. They have problems, they have issues, but they do still have what, 11 games left this year to turn it around? I've got faith that they will, with the personnel we have.

Heck, the NFC South is far from tied up in a neat package for New Orleans yet, or even Atlanta. An injury here or there, or a string of opponents on an upswing and it's cellar dweller again. Atlanta still has to play us at home (where they don't do as well), New Orleans has to face us twice (and historically, we've had the better of them, even in down years), and well, we do have Tampa again this year at home.

Have some faith and have some pride in the fact that the team is actually getting its act together. It ain't all there yet, but it is coming together.

Besides, I love it when we win close ones in the fourth quarter. I'm not that big on making it to the parking lot early to beat the traffic. And a lot of "fans" have been in their cars on the way home only to have to listen on the radio to how Jake is bringing the team back in a game. Sucks to bail out early and miss the come from behind win, doesn't it?

So don't head to the parking lot quite yet, okay?

Dude Jstew is good but you could have gotten the same situation with a back drafted in the 2nd or 3rd round. They got Jstew to be the starter not the back up. Dwill just played so well and Jstew health issues they had no choice but to start him.

Lets be realistic you have too many If's and maybe's in your statement. I love the Panthers and will always be a fan but being real is in my nature.

If this happen, then this could happen, or maybe this will happen. Their are too many ? with this team right now.

What's wrong with Jake will he get (IT) back?

Why is the Oline playing worst then last year and will they come too form?

Will the Dline hold up?

Will the secondary get owend again?

Will the Falcons or Saints fall back too us?

Will the injury Bug leave Charlotte?

Will the OC stop being Bland?

And a 100 more ? that need too be anwsered before we make a run.

Most of the time Teams with this many ? and If's don't get everything right before it's too late. I hope for our sakes we can do it. But the realist in me says be prepared for disappointment.

[pepaw]

people are still defending Jake Delhomme...