“Am I watching the same team as y’all” Part 2 (message for the homers edition)

[Mr. Scot]

8 minutes ago, Mage said:

"Not really", and then phrasing it into a different question afterwards, isn't answering the question.  Who is more of a championship caliber head coach, Reid/Schottenheimer or Gruden/Kubiak?  

And if the logic isn't about Rivera being capable but merely that he hasn't proven it, then well... what the hell does it matter then?  Again, nobody has proven anything before they have done it.  I mean the Ravens haven't been that good for years now, so why should I care that Harbaugh "proved" he could coach a team to a Super Bowl in 2012 (Rivera's 2nd season)?  Sean McVay hasn't "proven" he can win a Super Bowl.

We quite clearly can win a Super Bowl with Rivera.  Unless you think the odds of us winning the Super Bowl we made it to was 0%, then that means we could have won.  Just like its obvious McVay could win a Super Bowl if the circumstances line up.  But even if we go with the whole "prove it before we can know they can" logic, then at that point I don't even see why it matters if he's proven it or not since apparently he can't without winning the damn thing.  Did you not believe LeBron James could win an NBA Championship until he actually did it?

Again, none of them.

There are coaches who have been in charge of championship teams that still aren't championship caliber coaches (Barry Switzer, for example). The notion that this somehow proves something in favor of Ron Rivera though is false.

Is it possible that we could win a Superbowl with Ron Rivera as head coach? Sure it is. It's technically possible that we could win a Super Bowl with Amini Silatolu at quarterback. Whether or not those things are likely to happen is another story. That's why going from "it's possible" to "we clearly can" is a big leap.

As mentioned, I'm not on the train to fire Rivera. The notion that he's immune from criticism though is thoroughly improper.

[Mage]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Again, none of them.

There are coaches who has been in charge of championship teams that still aren't championship caliber coaches (Barry Switzer, for example). The notion that this somehow proves something in favor of Ron Rivera is false.

Is it possible that we could win a Superbowl with Ron Rivera as head coach? Sure it is. It's technically possible that we could win a Super Bowl with Amini Silatolu at quarterback. Whether or not those things are likely to happen is another story. That's why going from "it's possible" to "we definitely can" is a big leap.

As mentioned, I'm not on the train to fire Rivera. The notion that he's immune from criticism though is thoroughly improper.

Dude, there is no "none of them" answer.  I'm asking you who was more championship caliber.  The answer to 2 + 2 isn't "none".  You can't apply your logic (gotta prove it to show you can) and then act like you can't answer the question.  I mean somehow now you are saying you can win a championship without being championship caliber, but you can't be championship caliber without winning a championship... like dude lol.  How do you not see the problem with your argument?

But you are 100% right.  My mistake.  Me saying that we can win a Super Bowl with Rivera at head coach, having already gone to a Super Bowl with him as head coach, is just as sensible as me saying we can win a Super Bowl with Silatolu playing QB for the first time.  Good comparison

[Pantherxtreme]

2 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

And as I pointed out, Jim Caldwell, Bobby Ross, Bill Callahan, etc. all "made it to the Super Bowl".

If we were looking for a new head coach, would you call any of those guys?

Jim Caldwell took over a well oiled machine in 2009 that was essentially Peyton Manning and Toney Dungys team, went to the Super bowl in 09 and lost, 2010 they lost in the wildcard round, the next season without Manning the Colts finished 2-14 and were the worst team in football. 

Bobby Ross was a pretty decent coach for the Chargers in the 90's led them to the the playoffs 3 out the 5 years he was there and a Super bowl appearance in 1994 before running into an all-time great 49ers squad. After going 8-8 in '96 he was canned for Kevin Gilbride who subsequently went 4-12 in 1997 and then followed that up next with an 5-11 season. 

2002 Bill Callahan like Jim Caldwell took over a powerhouse team constructed by his predecessor Jon Gruden, who he had the unfortunate luck of facing in the Super bowl who knew the weaknesses of all the players and of course the playbook. 2003 an roster consisting of Rich Gannon, Jerry Rice, Tim Brown, Rod Woodson, got old over night and the Raiders went 4-12. Callahan was fired and from 2004-2016 the Raiders had about 7 head coaches and never won more than 8 games in a single season 13 years straight of 8 or less wins. 

I don't think these are great examples of why it may be best to move on from Rivera. First his record has proven not to be a flash in the pan like Caldwell and Callahan, secondly as shown making a change for change sake does not guarantee more success, it can always be alot worst.  

 

[Mr. Scot]

4 minutes ago, Mage said:

Dude, there is no "none of them" answer.  I'm asking you who was more championship caliber.  The answer to 2 + 2 isn't "none".  You can't apply your logic (gotta prove it to show you can) and then act like you can't answer the question.  I mean somehow now you are saying you can win a championship without being championship caliber, but you can't be championship caliber without winning a championship... like dude lol.  How do you not see the problem with your argument?

But you are 100% right.  My mistake.  Me saying that we can win a Super Bowl with Rivera at head coach, having already gone to a Super Bowl with him as head coach, is just as sensible as me saying we can win a Super Bowl with Silatolu playing QB for the first time.  Good comparison

I don't believe any of them is championship caliber at all. Given that, how could any one of them be more championshipc caliber than the others?

Mind you, Reid at least still has a chance.

And yes, you can win a championship without being an elite coach. If you don't buy that, feel free to argue me that Barry Switzer is a championship caliber coach at the pro level.

But can you be considered a Super Bowl winning coach without winning a Super Bowl? The answer to that should be obvious. Even Marv Levy can't claim that. Levy is a legitimate Hall of Famer, but that's a box he can never check.

[Moo Daeng]

You are trying to have a logical debate with a person who doesn't see the difference between his opinion and fact, regularly cites himself and huddle speculation as a source and apparently can't follow a line of thought. It will drive you mad.

[Mr. Scot]

7 minutes ago, Pantherxtreme said:

Jim Caldwell took over a well oiled machine in 2009 that was essentially Peyton Manning and Toney Dungys team, went to the Super bowl in 09 and lost, 2010 they lost in the wildcard round, the next season without Manning the Colts finished 2-14 and were the worst team in football. 

Bobby Ross was a pretty decent coach for the Chargers in the 90's led them to the the playoffs 3 out the 5 years he was there and a Super bowl appearance in 1994 before running into an all-time great 49ers squad. After going 8-8 in '96 he was canned for Kevin Gilbride who subsequently went 4-12 in 1997 and then followed that up next with an 5-12 season. 

2002 Bill Callahan like Jim Caldwell took over a powerhouse team constructed by his predecessor Jon Gruden, who he had the unfortunate luck of facing in the Super bowl who knew the weaknesses of all the players and of course the playbook. 2003 an roster consisting of Rich Gannon, Jerry Rice, Tim Brown, Rod Woodson, got old over night and the Raiders went 4-12. Callahan was fired and from 2004-2016 the Raiders had about 7 head coaches and never won more than 8 games in a single season 13 years straight of 8 or less wins. 

I don't think these are great examples of why it may be best to move on from Rivera. First his record has proven not to be a flash in the pan like Caldwell and Callahan, secondly as shown making a change for change sake does not guarantee more success, it can always be alot worst.  

 

Yes it can. It can also be better.

People have indicated that they think Rivera can't be questioned. I've pointed out quite clearly that he can be, and arguably should be. That doesn't necessarily mean he should be fired.

As I've said before, to make the decision to move on from Rivera (or any coach with a good winning record) you have to firmly believe that they've taken you as far as they possibly can. And that's not something that can be objectively proven. It's a total judgement call.

The real operative question is how long are you willing to wait.

If you'd have fired Bill Cowher after his 14th season without a Super Bowl win, you might have missed out on the one he got the following year. By the same token, if you hang on to Andy Reid in Philly, are you still treading water instead of celebrating a Super Bowl victory with Doug Pederson?

It's a question with no easy answers.

But it is a valid question.

[Mage]

15 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

And yes, you can win a championship without being an elite coach. If you don't buy that, feel free to argue me that Barry Switzer is a championship caliber coach at the pro level.

Dude, what?  That isn't what I was saying.  I was laughing at it because it shows you will apply context to one situation but not another one.

You said it yourself.  You can win a championship without being championship caliber.  Just like you can be championship caliber (and I saw you try to twist it; I've always only said championship caliber, not Super Bowl winning) without winning a championship.  Reid is good enough of a head coach to win a Super Bowl - just because he hasn't yet doesn't mean he isn't at that level.  He is 100% absolutely as good as Mike Tomlin, if not better.  He's just really been in unfortunate situations.  Your logic is "LeBron James wasn't championship caliber until he won a championship".

But that is where we disagree so no reason to continue this.

[Mr. Scot]

1 minute ago, Mage said:

Dude, what?  That isn't what I was saying.  I was laughing at it because it shows you will apply context to one situation but not another one.

You said it yourself.  You can win a championship without being championship caliber.  Just like you can be championship caliber (and I saw you try to twist it; I've always only said championship caliber, not Super Bowl winning) without winning a championship.  Reid is good enough of a head coach to win a Super Bowl - just because he hasn't yet doesn't mean he isn't at that level.  He's just really been in unfortunate situations.  Your logic is "LeBron James wasn't championship caliber until he won a championship".

But that is where we disagree so no reason to continue this.

Disagree. You can say a coach is good enough to win a championship even if he hasn't, but that's an opinion. You can't call it a fact.

As to the debate as a whole, the mistake that you and others have made debating me is you assume I want him fired or that I'm arguing he should be fired.

That's not the case.

Have said it many times, I'm not on the fire Rivera bandwagon. I have been before, but I'm not right now. If he hadn't fired Shula and Dorsey this offseason, I'd probably still be pretty firmly on it, but here we are.

The main point for me is this: People are talking about Rivera as if he's accomplished enough to make him unassailable. I don't agree with that at all. There are very valid arguments against sticking with Rivera. There are equally valid arguments in favor of keeping him.

The point is that it's debatable.

People suggesting that this isn't even a valid question are way off base.

[Doc Holiday]

5 hours ago, *FreeFua* said:

After being told that “ALL the evidence” is against me I figured I’d go look at stats.

No one is saying Ron Rivera is the world’s worst coach (although he is close) but many people here believe he will not get this team over that final last hump. 

Well to no ones surprise minus @Doc Holiday and @Rags the leaders of the “3-1 record” crowd, Ron Rivera’s record isn’t all that good (against the good teams).

I went back and looked at our record in each season against teams that made the playoffs THAT year.

Overall Ron is 15-24-1

2011: 1-6

2012: 2-3

2013: 3-2

2014: 1-4-1

2015: 4-0

2016: 0-5

2017: 4-4

I know the “homers” are going to immediately rule out his rookie year because it was his first season. They’re also the type that want to subtract the one bad outing from a pitchers record to help make the case for a CY Young award. Even so, you subtract a 1-6 record from his overall record and he’s still below .500 (14-18-1).

This is why many of us have grown tired with Rivera. Nothing ever seems to change and when it matters the most he’s often left looking lost. 

This team has a ton of talent and we’re so close to where we want to end up, Rivera just isn’t the guy to take us there. The longer we wait the smaller that window gets...

So after 2 replies with nothing but a gifs in my thread you make your own with a half assed reply via your own thread. Brilliant!!

Nice to see that you still avoided the subject of playoff appearances, Division titles, and overall wins compared to other teams head coaches.  The point was that Ron Rivera’s production wasn’t common and your response now doesn’t disprove this still.

As @t96 and others have pointed out numbers against playoff teams during the regular season are expected to be lower, the other teams are in the playoffs for a reason and without other teams head coaches record for comparison it’s a near meaningless stat.

LOL

[Mr. Scot]

Side Note: If any of my posts include words like "peekaboo" or "hello" that seeme out of place, it's because I'm working with a new parrot while using voice to text to type my posts.

I noticed a couple before I finished posting. I think I got them all, but just in case I didn't now you know why 

[Mage]

7 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Disagree. You can say a coach is good enough to win a championship even if he hasn't, but that's an opinion. You can't call it a fact.

Um, no duh?  You do realize you saying Reid isn't championship caliber is just an opinion too, right?  Unless you aren't aware of what the definition of "caliber" means.

Come on now.  We can agree to disagree, but don't try to act like your words are facts and mine are opinions.  We just have a disagreement.

[Mr. Scot]

3 minutes ago, Mage said:

Um, no duh?  You do realize you saying Reid isn't championship caliber is just an opinion too, right?  Unless you aren't aware of what the definition of "caliber" means.

Come on now.  We can agree to disagree, but don't try to act like your words are facts and mine are opinions.  We just have a disagreement.

I acknowledge that it's an opinion, and yeah we just disagree on this. I want to be clear on what our disagreement actually is, though.

I'm not going to be putting "Fire Rivera" in my signature anytime soon.

(now watch somebody quote that post and crop out everything but "fire Rivera")

[Doc Holiday]

57 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Again, none of them.

There are coaches who have been in charge of championship teams that still aren't championship caliber coaches (Barry Switzer, for example). The notion that this somehow proves something in favor of Ron Rivera though is false.

Is it possible that we could win a Superbowl with Ron Rivera as head coach? Sure it is. It's technically possible that we could win a Super Bowl with Amini Silatolu at quarterback. Whether or not those things are likely to happen is another story. That's why going from "it's possible" to "we clearly can" is a big leap.

As mentioned, I'm not on the train to fire Rivera. The notion that he's immune from criticism though is thoroughly improper.

Not saying he is immune from criticism just that you have to give credit where it is due.

shoot I hate that he holds onto vets too long, but at the same time some of that has to do with not having anyone behind them worth a damn. Like the later years of Jonathan Stewart.

[Jase]

“Please look past the objective facts and believe me”