Eric Washington/Luke Kuechly vs Mike Shula this week

[beastson]

14 hours ago, Toomers said:

  You can answer the same question. We struggle on offense, who you blaming? Norv or Scott Turner? Simple as that.

It depends lol

Maybe Cam is playing bad. Maybe the oline isn't blocking well. Struggles aren't always on the coach unless you're saying it is the coach and we have to choice. Scott is a QB coach, Norv is the OC. So is Cam struggling or the offensive gameplan and calls bad. Why  are you bringing Scott into this idk, what Scott and Norv are here isn't the same as Pat and Shula if thats what you're implying.

[Toomers]

10 minutes ago, beastson said:

It depends lol

Maybe Cam is playing bad. Maybe the oline isn't blocking well. Struggles aren't always on the coach unless you're saying it is the coach and we have to choice. Scott is a QB coach, Norv is the OC. So is Cam struggling or the offensive gameplan and calls bad. Why  are you bringing Scott into this idk, what Scott and Norv are here isn't the same as Pat and Shula if thats what you're implying.

 Why is it not the same? Don’t just say it. Tell me why? Everyone says it’s not the same. But no one explains why except for a title(OC) which holds no weight without play calling. 

    And all those things you attribute to Cam/Scott would be the same for Eli/Shula. If he is going to get blamed for something at all, it would be QB play. 

[ncfan]

 

[SmokinwithWilly]

I think what P55 and Snake are trying to say, correct me if I'm wrong guys, is Shula is not responsible for calling the plays, but he is responsible for collaborating with Shurmur and designing  (30-40) primary plays that are going to be practiced based on evaluation of the upcoming team's film and defensive scheme. Toomers, it sounds like you are saying Shula has zero to do with offense on Sunday and that's where we most of us disagree. Shurmur is working with Shula's breakdown and analysis of defenses, and likely some of his own, and the play designs from Shula. He takes "suggestions" from Shula on game day, but ultimately makes the decisions himself. 

Piss poor preparation yields piss poor performance. Shula's responsibility for final preparation, aka the play book, is to some extent, probably 25%-100%, I would tend to think about 75% with the other 25% being from Shurmer and assistants. It doesn't matter what Shurmur calls on Sundays if the "play book" is full of piss poor planning. If Shula isn't as involved, and at some point Shurmur has to start leaning on him, he's already proven he's not capable. Either way, Shula being involved with anything to do with "offense" is not good. 

 

[Toomers]

3 minutes ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

I think what P55 and Snake are trying to say, correct me if I'm wrong guys, is Shula is not responsible for calling the plays, but he is responsible for collaborating with Shurmur and designing  (30-40) primary plays that are going to be practiced based on evaluation of the upcoming team's film and defensive scheme. Toomers, it sounds like you are saying Shula has zero to do with offense on Sunday and that's where we most of us disagree. Shurmur is working with Shula's breakdown and analysis of defenses, and likely some of his own, and the play designs from Shula. He takes "suggestions" from Shula on game day, but ultimately makes the decisions himself. 

Piss poor preparation yields piss poor performance. Shula's responsibility for final preparation, aka the play book, is to some extent, probably 25%-100%, I would tend to think about 75% with the other 25% being from Shurmer and assistants. It doesn't matter what Shurmur calls on Sundays if the "play book" is full of piss poor planning. If Shula isn't as involved, and at some point Shurmur has to start leaning on him, he's already proven he's not capable. Either way, Shula being involved with anything to do with "offense" is not good. 

 

 No. I said he doesn’t call plays. Nothing more. And with that, should not be responsible for the success or failure. I don’t care how much he does during the week. It’s irrelevant. Only one person calls plays. He can suggest anything. If he suggests a play, and Shurmer doesn’t use it, is it Shula’s fault? 

  Which is why I compared Shula now to Chud/Shula. He was setting up the game plan with Chud. But wasn’t calling plays. Should Shula get credit or blame then? It’s no different. 

   Which is why it baffles me that people want to somehow prove his “importance” to that staff? Why? What’s the end game? Everyone wanted him gone. Ain’t no “told ya so” here. 

   

[Snake]

1 hour ago, Toomers said:

 No. I said he doesn’t call plays. Nothing more. And with that, should not be responsible for the success or failure. I don’t care how much he does during the week. It’s irrelevant. Only one person calls plays. He can suggest anything. If he suggests a play, and Shurmer doesn’t use it, is it Shula’s fault? 

  Which is why I compared Shula now to Chud/Shula. He was setting up the game plan with Chud. But wasn’t calling plays. Should Shula get credit or blame then? It’s no different. 

   Which is why it baffles me that people want to somehow prove his “importance” to that staff? Why? What’s the end game? Everyone wanted him gone. Ain’t no “told ya so” here. 

   

You said he was a QB coach. Now you're just talking out your ass. 

[SmokinwithWilly]

37 minutes ago, Toomers said:

 No. I said he doesn’t call plays. Nothing more. And with that, should not be responsible for the success or failure. I don’t care how much he does during the week. It’s irrelevant. Only one person calls plays. He can suggest anything. If he suggests a play, and Shurmer doesn’t use it, is it Shula’s fault? 

  Which is why I compared Shula now to Chud/Shula. He was setting up the game plan with Chud. But wasn’t calling plays. Should Shula get credit or blame then? It’s no different. 

   Which is why it baffles me that people want to somehow prove his “importance” to that staff? Why? What’s the end game? Everyone wanted him gone. Ain’t no “told ya so” here. 

   

How can you say that preparation has no part in the success and failure of play calls? If you base your offensive game plan for a team that plays primarily man to man instead of one that plays zone, and you're playing zone on Sunday, or you prep and practice a whole bunch of plays that run up the gut when the defense keeps stacking 8 in the box, no amount of Shurmur calling plays can fix that. Piss poor preparation gets piss poor results. Shula is 100% responsible for his part in preparation for game day, whether if that's calling the plays, or in analysis and play design. It's the same as Chud/Shula. Shula is 100% responsible for his part. Execution of plays is as critical as play calling and play design, one doesn't work without the other 2.

No one is trying to prove his "importance", but rather his involvement. The importance of his involvement however, is that as an offensive mind, one could argue he is lacking in ability to be employed at the NFL, and arguably, the college level.

[Toomers]

4 minutes ago, Snake said:

You said he was a QB coach. Now you're just talking out your ass. 

https://www.northjersey.com/story/sports/nfl/giants/2018/02/13/ny-giants-hire-mike-shula-offensive-coordinator-quarterbacks-coach/333136002/

 

The New York Giants are hiring Mike Shula, the son of Dolphins coaching legend and Hall of Famer Don Shula, to be Shurmur's offensive coordinator, a source confirmed to The Record and NorthJersey.com. Kim Jones of the NFL Network first reported the decision to go with Shula, most recently the offensive coordinator of the Carolina Panthers, where he spent the last seven seasons, five as offensive coordinator before he was fired last month.

Shula, 52, is also expected to serve as the Giants' quarterbacks coach.

 

   Well said.....at least you’re constantly wrong. Gotta have a goal. 

 

[Toomers]

6 minutes ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

How can you say that preparation has no part in the success and failure of play calls? If you base your offensive game plan for a team that plays primarily man to man instead of one that plays zone, and you're playing zone on Sunday, or you prep and practice a whole bunch of plays that run up the gut when the defense keeps stacking 8 in the box, no amount of Shurmur calling plays can fix that. Piss poor preparation gets piss poor results. Shula is 100% responsible for his part in preparation for game day, whether if that's calling the plays, or in analysis and play design. It's the same as Chud/Shula. Shula is 100% responsible for his part. Execution of plays is as critical as play calling and play design, one doesn't work without the other 2.

No one is trying to prove his "importance", but rather his involvement. The importance of his involvement however, is that as an offensive mind, one could argue he is lacking in ability to be employed at the NFL, and arguably, the college level.

Ahh. Once again, not only is everything just speculation you just posted(again). The only point is can he be held responsible? Good or bad? And without calling plays, how are you supposed to judge him?  

 He can be involved all he wants. Again, what’s your, or anyone’s, endgame. If the Giants suck does it mean something? You need that to know he sux. He does. Do we go to NO worried about Pete Carmichael’s coaching? After 11 years? 

[SmokinwithWilly]

14 minutes ago, Toomers said:

Ahh. Once again, not only is everything just speculation you just posted(again). The only point is can he be held responsible? Good or bad? And without calling plays, how are you supposed to judge him?  

 He can be involved all he wants. Again, what’s your, or anyone’s, endgame. If the Giants suck does it mean something? You need that to know he sux. He does. Do we go to NO worried about Pete Carmichael’s coaching? After 11 years? 

It's not 100% speculation. Shula is involved in the offense of the Giants to some degree, how much so, we aren't sure exactly, otherwise the Giants owner wouldn't be writing him a check to stand there as a lawn ornament. For whatever he is involved with, he is responsible. He can only be judged on what he has done. If what he does is good, he gets credit for being good, if it's bad, credit for being bad. And I said that he absolutely 100% can be held responsible for his part, good or bad. 

If you watch someone over time you notice trends, patterns in everything they do. Shula is known for ridiculously complex offensive line blocking schemes. If they weren't there before, and he comes in as a OC, coach, scheme designer, whatever, and they start happening just like every other place he has been involved, it's more likely than not that he has some involvement in that. You look at patterns and trends. If I'm looking for a project manager, and I look at his previous work and see that it was regularly not completed on time, I can pretty much conclude it's not going to be done if I hire him either. Is it 100% conclusive, no, but it's more likely than not. 

How do you judge him? You look at how the plays are designed are designed and compare them to other jobs he's held. Are they similar, are they not? Do they work to the strengths of your available players, or does it require them to do things that are beyond their ability? Are the bulk of the plays designed to compensate for a lot of blitzing from linebackers or are they designed for a team that does a lot of CB blitzes? Again, designing plays he would look at the defensive tendencies to create his game plan. There is a lot of speculation involved in calling game day plays, no one is saying that there isn't. We are watching the Giants and seeing some of the same tendencies that occurred when Shula was OC here. Even with Shurmur calling plays, I think it's safe to say, Shula's involved to some extent. 

And I think we do for PC. I would. Again, studying tendencies and patterns. Designing our game day defense around what he likes to do. It's a chess match, on and off the field. If I were considering hiring PC, I would do the same thing. 

You're saying it's impossible to judge Shula because he isn't calling the plays. I am saying it's not.

[Snake]

1 hour ago, Toomers said:

https://www.northjersey.com/story/sports/nfl/giants/2018/02/13/ny-giants-hire-mike-shula-offensive-coordinator-quarterbacks-coach/333136002/

 

The New York Giants are hiring Mike Shula, the son of Dolphins coaching legend and Hall of Famer Don Shula, to be Shurmur's offensive coordinator, a source confirmed to The Record and NorthJersey.com. Kim Jones of the NFL Network first reported the decision to go with Shula, most recently the offensive coordinator of the Carolina Panthers, where he spent the last seven seasons, five as offensive coordinator before he was fired last month.

Shula, 52, is also expected to serve as the Giants' quarterbacks coach.

 

   Well said.....at least you’re constantly wrong. Gotta have a goal. 

 

Did you seriously use the same link I gave you to try and prove your point. It says right there he is the OC. This is like boxing a cripple. 

[Toomers]

19 minutes ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

It's not 100% speculation. Shula is involved in the offense of the Giants to some degree, how much so, we aren't sure exactly, otherwise the Giants owner wouldn't be writing him a check to stand there as a lawn ornament. For whatever he is involved with, he is responsible. He can only be judged on what he has done. If what he does is good, he gets credit for being good, if it's bad, credit for being bad. And I said that he absolutely 100% can be held responsible for his part, good or bad. 

If you watch someone over time you notice trends, patterns in everything they do. Shula is known for ridiculously complex offensive line blocking schemes. If they weren't there before, and he comes in as a OC, coach, scheme designer, whatever, and they start happening just like every other place he has been involved, it's more likely than not that he has some involvement in that. You look at patterns and trends. If I'm looking for a project manager, and I look at his previous work and see that it was regularly not completed on time, I can pretty much conclude it's not going to be done if I hire him either. Is it 100% conclusive, no, but it's more likely than not. 

How do you judge him? You look at how the plays are designed are designed and compare them to other jobs he's held. Are they similar, are they not? Do they work to the strengths of your available players, or does it require them to do things that are beyond their ability? Are the bulk of the plays designed to compensate for a lot of blitzing from linebackers or are they designed for a team that does a lot of CB blitzes? Again, designing plays he would look at the defensive tendencies to create his game plan. There is a lot of speculation involved in calling game day plays, no one is saying that there isn't. We are watching the Giants and seeing some of the same tendencies that occurred when Shula was OC here. Even with Shurmur calling plays, I think it's safe to say, Shula's involved to some extent. 

And I think we do for PC. I would. Again, studying tendencies and patterns. Designing our game day defense around what he likes to do. It's a chess match, on and off the field. If I were considering hiring PC, I would do the same thing. 

You're saying it's impossible to judge Shula because he isn't calling the plays. I am saying it's not.

   For the 100th time, I never said he sits around and does nothing. 

But he can do his job perfectly. Recommend great plays. Have Eli ready. And it will all look like crap if Shurmer doesn’t call the right plays at the right time. Same the other way. If he sucks at everything,and Shurmer calls great games, he looks great. 

 

Do you really think that Shula has some magical system that no one else runs. Just him? C’mon. I’ve asked this repeatedly. Which plays? What’s the difference? What’s the same. People keep saying this with nothing but “cause I said so” attached. If it is this easy to spot, this should be no problem. And also show where no other NFL team runs these plays. Just Shula. 

[Toomers]

20 minutes ago, Snake said:

Did you seriously use the same link I gave you to try and prove your point. It says right there he is the OC. This is like boxing a cripple. 

Show me where I said he wasn’t an OC. He’s both. Something the article clearly states. You really need to try harder than that. Anything else you want to look foolish about, let me know. 

[Moo Daeng]

Poor Snake....good grief.