I would like to talk about this Matt Kalil situation

[Mr. Scot]

2 minutes ago, trueblade said:

Maybe because those guys needed the players Gettleman brought in? It's like trying to argue if hydrogen or oxygen is more important to water. It was the team made up of Hurney and Gettleman (and even Seifert) players that won and lost, which makes it difficult for me to accept W/L as a good metric for a GM despite it being the most important stat/metric in the game. 

But if they "needed the guys that Gettleman brought in" that's basically an admission that Hurney couldn't build a winning roster.

You have to go by the roster as a whole. You can't just single out the best guys on it.

Heck, even the Browns have great players.

[The Natural]

2 minutes ago, electro's horse said:

i dont know why people care so much about this

one pass goes differently in cincinnati in 2014 and the panthers have 3 straight winning seasons. 

People care because it showcases the inconsistency of this franchise. Hurney 1.0 and Gettleman weren't very good at managing and maintaining success. 

[Mr. Scot]

Just now, The Natural said:

People care because it showcases the inconsistency of this franchise. Hurney 1.0 and Gettleman weren't very good at managing and maintaining success. 

You do realize we've had other GMs besides Hurney and Gettleman, right?

The team wasn't established in 2002.

[The Natural]

No poo. What in the world does that have to do with anything? 

[Manther]

3 hours ago, FugAllY'all said:

I've never seen so much hate for a guy who actually played ok for most of a season and then got hurt. LIke, is it purely the money?

On the scale of bad contracts, this is barely even a 1.

I don't hate Matt Kalil.  I do think he took us for a ride and is laughing all way to bank with his swimsuit model wife. 

He was not an ok OT.  He wasn't THE worst, but was ONE of the worst in the league.  And don't cherry pick parts of the season so that his numbers look better.  Every game counts even when its just the Bears.

Watching Cam get hit in preseason while Matt stands there like a statue, when, once again, Matt is supposed to be healthy....was infuriating.  Now Matt isn't healthy again.

DG probably wishes he could get this one back, I know I do.  

This is probably the best we could hope for.  Keep him on IR for 8 weeks, see how Moton does.  If Moton plays well, Kalil is cut or restructures as a backup and pay the deadmoney and move on.

If not, we consider putting the now super healthy Kalil back on the field.  Hopefully he plays the second half of the season like the second half last year and we have an above average OT.

Put this move in with the Josh Norman folder and move on.

 

 

[Toomers]

13 minutes ago, trueblade said:

Maybe because those guys needed the players Gettleman brought in? It's like trying to argue if hydrogen or oxygen is more important to water. It was the team made up of Hurney and Gettleman (and even Seifert) players that won and lost, which makes it difficult for me to accept W/L as a good metric for a GM despite it being the most important stat/metric in the game. 

What metric would you prefer? 

  51-28-1 with 4 playoff appearances and a SB appearance in 5 years....coming off of

  23-41 and a team with what was described by most as “salary cap hell”. 

 Hurney better have some players on the team. He drafted for 10 years. 

And when is the magic cutoff date for credit here. Does Gettleman get credit for everything Hurney does for the next 5 years? 

[MillionDollarCam]

45 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Fiz can actually claim to have had some contact with Panther insiders, so yeah he has a basis for what he says.  And nothing he said there is exactly farfetched.  It's well known that Richardson favored certain players. Loads of stories back that up.

As to last season, Hurney had absolutely zero to do with the draft, free agency or anything else up till training camp.  Unless you can say something similar about 2013 (hint: you can't) you've got no argument for any similarity between those seasons.

Yes, Kalil is on Gettleman.  Could Richardson have had influence?  Possibly, but the verdict is the same as it is when you talk about Richardson's influence on Hurney's contracts.  They both still wrote and signed the deals and they have to take the ultimate blame.

As to the GM argument, answer this: How good a GM is Phil Savage?

Why does that mater?  Because in Phil Savage's time with Cleveland, the team didn't win a lot of games.  But hey, he drafted Joe Thomas, arguably the best left tackle in league history.  That has to count for something, right?

Yeah, except it doesn't...

Success isn't defined by how good a guy you drafted in the first round (especially when you had a high pick).  It's defined by how many games the full 53 man roster that you put together wins.  The difference between Hurney and Gettleman's win-loss percentage is, shall we say, significant. If you want to argue for Hurney, you have to do everything possible to avoid or downplay the amount of winning the respective teams did, and that makes for a pretty sh--ty argument. 

Unless you can convince me that winning games was somehow less important than subjective draft evaluations, you haven't got a leg to stand on.

But by all means, try and convince me: Show me what matters more than winning, if you can.

This is a message board, someone can claim to be Marty Hurney in the flesh if they wanted, it doesn't make their opinion or assumption anymore factual than someone like Voth who is actually at BofA every day. 

To this point there is nothing to suggest that DG was forced to sign Kalil. Obviosly Richardson favored certain employees, every boss does, that's not out of the ordinary... it's called corporate America. Nonetheless, If DG wasn't prohibited from canning JR's golden boy (Steve Smith), then it is highly unlikely that he was given an ultimatum to sign Matt Kalil to a $55M contract to appease Ryan.

As for last year's season, humor me, what were the free agent signings and draft picks (outside of McCaffrey) that made an impact... Matt Kalil? The premier players on that 2013 team (Newton, Williams, Stewart, Tolbert, Olsen, Gross, Wharton, Kalil, Hardy, Johnson, Kuechly, and Davis) were Hurney guys. 

As for the winning percentage arguement, Gettleman benefited from an MVP season from Cam, ya know a Hurney guy... But good on Gettleman, he can keep those 6-10 and 7-8-1 seasons and benefit from an inflated winning percentage from a miracle season in 2015 and a shitty division 2014.

I love how we give credit to GM's when outside of general player eval and cap management they have little to no bearing on the future of the team. Rivera deserves the credit for the success and failure of the Panthers as it is his job to develop players. I give credit to DG for identifying some great players for Rivera to work with but Hurney did the same thing at nearly the same level.

The post by electro was a solid post but adding Hurney into the fold and taking a shot at him takes away from the issue. The cap issue created by DG.

I get you live in a world where DG did no wrong but if we're giving passes to him for the Kalil contract because of JR then why doesn't Hurney get the same?

Or should we all just agree to point the blame at JR, which is where it belongs.

[falconidae]

22 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

That's probably gonna happen anyway.

There's just no scenario for this that makes sense for both the team and Kalil.  One or the other has to give, and that's highly unlikely.

Edit: Fiz's response above is better.

You know, didn't realize this would be so hard to explain.  It IS possible to do. Like i said, Falcons just did it with two players, albeit, much lesser amounts and the Eagles and Vick did it and wiped out about 60 mil in salary. 

If Moton is the LT of the future, he's getting what amounts to minimum  wage for next couple of years. if the panthers get Kalil to take a significant pay cut, it's worth their while to do so. Save a few mil of the cap 2019, cut him the next year.

Only way it makes sense for Kalil is if he's planning to retire because his body just can't take the punishment of an NFL season, in which case, taking less money makes sense. It's another chunk of money he wouldn't get otherwise.

I'll concede it's not likely, but only spent so much time with this just because it IS possible.

 

 

[CarolinaNCSU]

Best case scenario is retirement.

Anyone have a clue on what we'd be on the hook for, should he "not recover" from his injury and not be able to pass a physical to get back on the field?

[MillionDollarCam]

43 minutes ago, electro's horse said:

Hold on, I never said JR made them get Matt. I'm sure Ryan had some input, but with one other exception, he was the best option on the market.

On one hand, you don't offer him that contract. on the other, that was what the market was dictating. And there were reasons to expect him to bounce back. Kalil was a failure of the scouting and coaching staff, the general manager, and Ryan Kalil lobbying for him. there are ways to sign him that don't end up with this albatross contract, but we don't know if another team was willing to offer something better. 

Now, once he was here, and once he was shown to be damaged goods? that was VERY much kalil lobbying richardson to keep him on. 

They would have never let DG trade him and a pick to Cleveland for cap relief ala Osweiller in houston. That just wasn't how they did business. 

My apologies, I misinterpreted your post.

[Toomers]

5 minutes ago, MillionDollarCam said:

   The premier players on that 2013 team (Newton, Williams, Stewart, Tolbert, Olsen, Gross, Wharton, Kalil, Hardy, Johnson, Kuechly, and Davis) were Hurney guys. 

 

Strange thing is, they were all on the 7-9 team in 2012. And all but Luke was on a 6-10 team in 2011. 9 of them were part of a 2-14 team. So how does this work again? Ignore facts and twist whatever you need for the agenda. Got it.

[The Natural]

10 minutes ago, MillionDollarCam said:

This is a message board, someone can claim to be Marty Hurney in the flesh if they wanted, it doesn't make their opinion or assumption anymore factual than someone like Voth who is actually at BofA every day. 

To this point there is nothing to suggest that DG was forced to sign Kalil. Obviosly Richardson favored certain employees, every boss does, that's not out of the ordinary... it's called corporate America. Nonetheless, If DG wasn't prohibited from canning JR's golden boy (Steve Smith), then it is highly unlikely that he was given an ultimatum to sign Matt Kalil to a $55M contract to appease Ryan.

As for last year's season, humor me, what were the free agent signings and draft picks (outside of McCaffrey) that made an impact... Matt Kalil? The premier players on that 2013 team (Newton, Williams, Stewart, Tolbert, Olsen, Gross, Wharton, Kalil, Hardy, Johnson, Kuechly, and Davis) were Hurney guys. 

As for the winning percentage arguement, Gettleman benefited from an MVP season from Cam, ya know a Hurney guy... But good on Gettleman, he can keep those 6-10 and 7-8-1 seasons and benefit from an inflated winning percentage from a miracle season in 2015 and a shitty division 2014.

I love how we give credit to GM's when outside of general player eval and cap management they have little to no bearing on the future of the team. Rivera deserves the credit for the success and failure of the Panthers as it is his job to develop players. I give credit to DG for identifying some great players for Rivera to work with but Hurney did the same thing at nearly the same level.

The post by electro was a solid post but adding Hurney into the fold and taking a shot at him takes away from the issue. The cap issue created by DG.

I get you live in a world where DG did no wrong but if we're giving passes to him for the Kalil contract because of JR then why doesn't Hurney get the same?

Or should we all just agree to point the blame at JR, which is where it belongs.

Bingo! You nailed it.

[MillionDollarCam]

3 minutes ago, Toomers said:

Strange thing is, they were all on the 7-9 team in 2012. And all but Luke was on a 6-10 team in 2011. 9 of them were part of a 2-14 team. So how does this work again? Ignore facts and twist whatever you need for the agenda. Got it.

And all of Gettleman's players were a part of a 7-8-1 and 6-10 season... What's your point?

[electro's horse]

5 minutes ago, Toomers said:

Strange thing is, they were all on the 7-9 team in 2012. And all but Luke was on a 6-10 team in 2011. 9 of them were part of a 2-14 team. So how does this work again? Ignore facts and twist whatever you need for the agenda. Got it.

yeah it's almost like a certain play style dictated from a coach produces highly variable results