I would like to talk about this Matt Kalil situation

[Mr. Scot]

3 minutes ago, Toomers said:

What part of the 7M is guaranteed do you not get. If we don’t cut him after this year, he gets that. Why would he just give away money? He has no incentive to. 

 Show me the players and contracts that gave away guaranteed money. I’d like to see how this works. Who were these Falcons that did this.

Kalil honestly doesn't have any incentive to give anything back.  Just the opposite, actually.  Unless he's delusional, he's gotta at least have some idea that his time in the NFL is going to end sooner rather than later.

It'd be incredibly noble of him to take any kind of a pay cut.  It'd also be amazingly stupid.

I don't think he's stupid.

[trueblade]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

 

That said, Gettleman still helmed the most successful era in Panthers history (and yes, last season belongs to him too). 

Hurney still has an awful record at running this team

Gettleman helmed a team with significant contributions from Hurney draftees and signings. 

I think the Kalil signing shows how badly Jerry Richardson influenced could impact the team. It's logical to assume the same bad influence was present in the Hurney years. 

Richardson makes any Hurney / Gettleman debate a tricky issue. 

 

[Mr. Scot]

1 minute ago, trueblade said:

Gettleman helmed a team with significant contributions from Hurney draftees and signings. 

I think the Kalil signing shows how badly Jerry Richardson influenced could impact the team. It's logical to assume the same bad influence was present in the Hurney years. 

Richardson makes any Hurney / Gettleman debate a tricky issue.

Two of Hurney's three successful seasons came with roster heavily influenced by George Seifert.

Bottom Line though, Hurney had those same guys too and couldn't build a winning roster around them.  Gettleman did.

Agree about Richardson though.  His being gone now is for the best.

[falconidae]

6 minutes ago, Toomers said:

What part of the 7M is guaranteed do you not get. If we don’t cut him after this year, he gets that. Why would he just give away money? He has no incentive to. 

   Show me the players and contracts that gave away guaranteed money. I’d like to see how this works. Who were these Falcons that did this.

The part where they tear up that contract up and sign another one. OR, they  re-do the deal before the 3rd day of the new league year. Take your pick. Either way, Kalil gets less money, panthers avoid the dead money.

The next year's  salary is usually only guaranteed after the season starts, if the panthers wrote the contract that is becomes guaranteed after the 3rd day of new league year, then the contract is even dumber than I thought. 

[Mr. Scot]

Just now, falconidae said:

The part where they tear up that contract up and sign another one. OR, they  re-do the deal before the 3rd day of the new league year. Take your pick. Either way, Kalil gets less money, panthers avoid the dead money.

The next year's  salary is usually only guaranteed after the season starts, if the panthers wrote the contract that is becomes guaranteed after the 3rd day of new league year, then the contract is even dumber than I thought. 

Again though, why would Kalil do that?

That's the biggest question in this scenario and I don't think there's a good answer for it.

[Toomers]

 

8 minutes ago, falconidae said:

The part where they tear up that contract up and sign another one. OR, they  re-do the deal before the 3rd day of the new league year. Take your pick. Either way, Kalil gets less money, panthers avoid the dead money.

The next year's  salary is usually only guaranteed after the season starts, if the panthers wrote the contract that is becomes guaranteed after the 3rd day of new league year, then the contract is even dumber than I thought. 

And don’t forget...guaranteed in case of injury as well. Now you can understand why I’ve been “pounding the table” since the day he signed this anchor. 

[falconidae]

9 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Kalil honestly doesn't have any incentive to give anything back.  Just the opposite, actually.  Unless he's delusional, he's gotta at least have some idea that his time in the NFL is going to end sooner rather than later.

It'd be incredibly noble of him to take any kind of a pay cut.  It'd also be amazingly stupid.

I don't think he's stupid.

Then you cut him and take the cap hit.

It's not noble, it's just admitting that  he's getting cut otherwise and he gets to make some money next year.

Vet minimum is probably a little much, but what if he gave 3 mil back? That's an extra 3 mil the panthers have, they put off the dead money of cutting him, and Kalil still gets 4 mil.

Wild card in the equation is whether or not some other team would pick him up after he's cut. Teams are so desperate for Olinemen that the answer is maybe, but the man has such a horrible track record since his rookie season  that there's a chance no team will touch him.

If he thinks no team will touch him, or, if really doesn't want to play football anymore, then taking a pay cut makes sense for him.

 

[MillionDollarCam]

32 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Yeah...Pretty much none of that is true.

Nobody is praising the Kalil signing.  Everybody knew it was a risk when it happened and it's turned into a disaster.

That said, Gettleman still helmed the most successful era in Panthers history (and yes, last season belongs to him too).  Denying that is just stupid, as was the decision to fire him and the dumbass who made that decision.  Thankfully, said dumbass is now permanently (and deservedly) removed.

Hurney still has an awful record at running this team.  The process of reinstalling him permanently was a farce (Richardson's "parting gift") but nothing can change that now. This season will be his first legitimate shot at trying to turn that around.  As much as I doubt Hurney's ability, I hope he succeeds because otherwise the team fails.

Which part of what was said was inaccurate? Not a single line could be misconstured as "alternative facts". In fact, most of yours and electros hypotheses on DG being held hostage by JR in regards to the Kalil deal have no basis or support, they are simply assumptions.

Gettleman took over a team that had a core that consisted of mostly Hurney players. More importantly, if we are going to credit DG with last seasons performance then it is only fair to give Hurney credit for the the Panthers 2013 season that resulted in a 12-4 record.

Similarly to Hurney, DG hit on early draft picks and made a mockery of his late picks. We can go back and forth all we want on who is more responsible for the Panthers future success (or failure), but the bottom line is DG, who was hired to get us out of cap hell is responsible for putting us right back in it.

While Hurney has made his share of mistakes, he is responsible for two of the top three players to ever put on the black and blue and to this point he's made level headed decisions in his return.

Kalil is on DG and is the perfect shitstain to sum up his time here. The guy who was brought in because he was a "cap genius" engineered one of the most ludicrous deals we have seen. At the very least DeAngelo Williams, Charles Johnson, and Jonathan Stewart were productive.

[Mr. Scot]

Just now, falconidae said:

Then you cut him and take the cap hit.

It's not noble, it's just admitting that  he's getting cut otherwise and he gets to make some money next year.

Vet minimum is probably a little much, but what if he gave 3 mil back? That's an extra 3 mil the panthers have, they put off the dead money of cutting him, and Kalil still gets 4 mil.

Wild card in the equation is whether or not some other team would pick him up after he's cut. Teams are so desperate for Olinemen that the answer is maybe, but the man has such a horrible track record since his rookie season  that there's a chance no team will touch him.

If he thinks no team will touch him, or, if really doesn't want to play football anymore, then taking a pay cut makes sense for him.

I'd have to disagree there.  If he either can't or doesn't want to play football anymore, why give money back?  You're sure as heck not making that kind of money again anytime soon.

[falconidae]

Just now, Mr. Scot said:

I'd have to disagree there.  If he either can't or doesn't want to play football anymore, why give money back?  You're sure as heck not making that kind of money again anytime soon.

Because he'll get cut if he says no to the pay cut and end up with nothing for next year. 

[Mr. Scot]

13 minutes ago, MillionDollarCam said:

Which part of what was said was inaccurate? Not a single line could be misconstured as "alternative facts". In fact, most of yours and electros hypotheses on DG being held hostage by JR in regards to the Kalil deal have no basis or support, they are simply assumptions.

Gettleman took over a team that had a core that consisted of mostly Hurney players. More importantly, if we are going to credit DG with last seasons performance then it is only fair to give Hurney credit for the the Panthers 2013 season that resulted in a 12-4 record.

Similarly to Hurney, DG hit on early draft picks and made a mockery of his late picks. We can go back and forth all we want on who is more responsible for the Panthers future success (or failure), but the bottom line is DG, who was hired to get us out of cap hell is responsible for putting us right back in it.

While Hurney has made his share of mistakes he is responsible for two of the top three players to ever put on the black and blue and to this point he's made level headed decisions in his return.

Kalil is on DG and is the perfect shitstain to sum up his time here. The guy who was brought in because he was a "cap genius" engineered one of the most ludicrous deals we have seen. At the very least DeAngelo Williams, Charles Johnson, and Jonathan Stewart were productive.

Fiz can actually claim to have had some contact with Panther insiders, so yeah he has a basis for what he says.  And nothing he said there is exactly farfetched.  It's well known that Richardson favored certain players. Loads of stories back that up.

As to last season, Hurney had absolutely zero to do with the draft, free agency or anything else up till training camp.  Unless you can say something similar about 2013 (hint: you can't) you've got no argument for any similarity between those seasons.

Yes, Kalil is on Gettleman.  Could Richardson have had influence?  Possibly, but the verdict is the same as it is when you talk about Richardson's influence on Hurney's contracts.  They both still wrote and signed the deals and they have to take the ultimate blame.

As to the GM argument, answer this: How good a GM is Phil Savage?

Why does that mater?  Because in Phil Savage's time with Cleveland, the team didn't win a lot of games.  But hey, he drafted Joe Thomas, arguably the best left tackle in league history.  That has to count for something, right?

Yeah, except it doesn't...

Success isn't defined by how good a guy you drafted in the first round (especially when you had a high pick).  It's defined by how many games the full 53 man roster that you put together wins.  The difference between Hurney and Gettleman's win-loss percentage is, shall we say, significant. If you want to argue for Hurney, you have to do everything possible to avoid or downplay the amount of winning the respective teams did, and that makes for a pretty sh--ty argument. 

Unless you can convince me that winning games was somehow less important than subjective draft evaluations, you haven't got a leg to stand on.

But by all means, try and convince me: Show me what matters more than winning, if you can.

[electro's horse]

5 minutes ago, falconidae said:

Because he'll get cut if he says no to the pay cut and end up with nothing for next year. 

Yeah but he's already made a poo ton with the signing bonus, and he has leverage in the situation. What are the panthers going to do, cut him and take the cap hit? 

It's a staring contest. 

Again, like I stated numerous times in the OP, him restructuring his contract all rests on the assumptions A: he wants to play football again and B: he has a sense of pride and C: the Panthers are cut throat enough to do it. 

One or all of those assumptions might be inaccurate, at which point the conversation is moot.

[Toomers]

4 minutes ago, falconidae said:

Then you cut him and take the cap hit.

It's not noble, it's just admitting that  he's getting cut otherwise and he gets to make some money next year.

Vet minimum is probably a little much, but what if he gave 3 mil back? That's an extra 3 mil the panthers have, they put off the dead money of cutting him, and Kalil still gets 4 mil.

Wild card in the equation is whether or not some other team would pick him up after he's cut. Teams are so desperate for Olinemen that the answer is maybe, but the man has such a horrible track record since his rookie season  that there's a chance no team will touch him.

If he thinks no team will touch him, or, if really doesn't want to play football anymore, then taking a pay cut makes sense for him.

 

  Even if he would/could do something like that, and I would still like to see where it’s been done before, he still carries 10M cap hit for 2020. We are on the hook for 4.9M in 2019. Those aren’t changing no matter what. Why would we want to spend 3M more? That 4.9 is in his pocket as part of the 25M he has already gotten. Why make it worse and still have 10M more to eat after?  Not to mention that If he can pass a physical, he can get 3-4M easily. Just because he plays LT. Among the numerous other reasons given that why would Kalil do it?

[Mr. Scot]

8 minutes ago, falconidae said:

Because he'll get cut if he says no to the pay cut and end up with nothing for next year. 

That's probably gonna happen anyway.

There's just no scenario for this that makes sense for both the team and Kalil.  One or the other has to give, and that's highly unlikely.

Edit: Fiz's response above is better.