Butler and Bradberry are 3rd year players. They have to show something

[Icege]

Butler wasn't a luxury pick, he was insurance at #30 in case we lost KK. Look at the previous Gettleman drafts and the goings on of that draft. Dwan Edwards was no longer with the team after providing quality veteran depth and KK was entering the final year of his contract. The draft where Butler took place was in April 2016 and KK didn't resign until April 2017 (franchise tagged in Feb 2017). We can see now that KK was the more valued of him & Star (and rightfully so), which meant that Gettleman was going to be able to draft a replacement for KK and allow Butler to spell him should he have played out the tag. Shaq had been taken the previous season as insurance for losing TD, as well as Funchess in case of losing KB. KB tore his ACL and the team went 15-1 + a Super Bowl trip, so the strategy looked like it paid off. Much harder to make it work though when he cuts the best CB in franchise history (if you don't agree then you're just ok with being wrong c('.'c)) less than 2 weeks before the draft after the #2 CB retires. Thanks Dave, that move was dildos.

Star's 2015 season he missed two games with the stress reaction in his foot. As a 3rd year starter in 14 games (533 defensive snaps, 52 special teams snaps), Lotulelei's stats were 13 tackles, 9 assists, 1 sack, 1 forced fumble, and two pass deflections. In comparison, Butler's rookie season (2016) as a back-up playing in 10 games (225 defensive snaps, 42 special teams snaps) 5 tackles, 8 assists, 1.5 sack, 1 pass deflection, and two blocked field goals. The difference between a rookie DT minus 6 games vs. a 3rd year DT minus 2 games was:

-8 tackles
-1 assists
-1 pass deflection
-1 forced fumbles
+.5 sack
+2 blocked field goals

This was the statistical difference with Star also having an additional 308 defensive and 10 special teams snaps. 

On a per snap basis...

2015 Star (Year 3)
Tackles: 0.022
Assists: 0.015
Pass Deflections: 0.003
Forced Fumbles: 0.002
Sacks: 0.002
Blocked FGs: 0

2016 Butler (Rookie)
Tackles: 0.019
Assists: 0.03
Pass Deflections: 0.004
Forced Fumbles: 0
Sacks:  0.006
Blocked FGs: 0.007

Difference between 2016 Butler vs. 2015 Lotulelei
-0.003 tackles
+0.015 assists
+0.001 pass deflections
-0.002 forced fumbles
+0.004 sacks
+0.007 blocked field goals

Butler's 2017 with 8 tackles, 5 assists, 1 pass deflection, 0 sacks, 0 forced fumbles, and 0 blocked field goals? 294 defensive and 61 special teams snaps. If you want to call 3 more tackles, 3 less assists, 1.5 less sacks, and 2 less blocked field goals (with equal forced fumbles + pass deflections) with an additional 69 defensive & 19 specials teams snaps a sophomore slump... ok...

I mean... are we so desperate for Butler to start that we put Short on the bench? I'm not following. The narrative that it was a luxury pick is bullshit, and the narrative that he's done nothing is bullshit. Has he gotten as many opportunities? No. Is that 100% on him? No.

[yasuhara2241]

3 hours ago, pantherclaw said:

Don't you just love people who put down/diss good players in an attempt to back their bs opinion? 

Thank God the huddle has you to do that!

Don't you love people who bash others opinions just because they don't agree with you? Thank God the huddle has your to do that!

Please read all the posts I make and come back and repeat that, but I know you won't. You will just come back with a snarky comment. 

[Panthers8969]

6 hours ago, BigSyke said:

Bradberry did good vs Adam Thielen. He's weird, like hot n cold for certain games.

Almost like he matches upbetter against some receivers than others lol

[Manther]

In essence, we almost didn't' have a first round pick that year, because we were picking soooo low.  It concerns me that Butler is now stuck behind Poe, but we value defensive line strength and depth probably more than anybody. 

Bradberry was drafted the bottom of the second round, nearly third.  I'd say he's shown reasonable roi  This year is important to see if it was a sophomore slump,  low ceiling or lack of help.  He needs interceptions.

Most first rounders do not become all-pro.  That said, I think in retrospect, relying on the draft to rebuild our secondary was a bad plan.  Had DG just left the tag on Norman,   Bradberry would be a pretty good number two.  Instead we let go nearly all our secondary and drafted corners.  We're still drafting corners.  

[pantherclaw]

15 hours ago, yasuhara2241 said:

Don't you love people who bash others opinions just because they don't agree with you? Thank God the huddle has your to do that!

Please read all the posts I make and come back and repeat that, but I know you won't. You will just come back with a snarky comment. 

I responded directly to the post I quoted. And what I called you out on, is exactly what you did. 

Take your sour grapes somewhere else. 

[ChibCU]

1 hour ago, Manther said:

In essence, we almost didn't' have a first round pick that year, because we were picking soooo low.  It concerns me that Butler is now stuck behind Poe, but we value defensive line strength and depth probably more than anybody. 

Bradberry was drafted the bottom of the second round, nearly third.  I'd say he's shown reasonable roi  This year is important to see if it was a sophomore slump,  low ceiling or lack of help.  He needs interceptions.

Most first rounders do not become all-pro.  That said, I think in retrospect, relying on the draft to rebuild our secondary was a bad plan.  Had DG just left the tag on Norman,   Bradberry would be a pretty good number two.  Instead we let go nearly all our secondary and drafted corners.  We're still drafting corners.  

Would have been great to have Norman tagged that year, but was the long-term plan? Norman was overpaid and now is a salary cap nightmare for the Redskins.

[TheRed]

16 hours ago, Icege said:

Butler wasn't a luxury pick

I mean this turned out to be the definition of a luxury pick. We're relegated to just having a sliver of hope that he balls out this season because even if he does the odds of us having the cap space to keep him after next season are low because we wasted most of his rookie contract riding the bench. You could similarly make the same argument for Shaq as well. Regardless of how much talent and potential both of these guys may possess, you still cannot change the fact that they were first round picks whose affordable rookie years were basically squandered.

When you add on top of that what happened with guys like Worley, Kony Ealy, and Kelvin Benjamin as well, these recent drafts start to get dicey in a hurry.

[LinvilleGorge]

16 hours ago, Icege said:

Butler wasn't a luxury pick, he was insurance at #30 in case we lost KK. Look at the previous Gettleman drafts and the goings on of that draft. Dwan Edwards was no longer with the team after providing quality veteran depth and KK was entering the final year of his contract. The draft where Butler took place was in April 2016 and KK didn't resign until April 2017 (franchise tagged in Feb 2017). We can see now that KK was the more valued of him & Star (and rightfully so), which meant that Gettleman was going to be able to draft a replacement for KK and allow Butler to spell him should he have played out the tag. Shaq had been taken the previous season as insurance for losing TD, as well as Funchess in case of losing KB. KB tore his ACL and the team went 15-1 + a Super Bowl trip, so the strategy looked like it paid off. Much harder to make it work though when he cuts the best CB in franchise history (if you don't agree then you're just ok with being wrong c('.'c)) less than 2 weeks before the draft after the #2 CB retires. Thanks Dave, that move was dildos.

Star's 2015 season he missed two games with the stress reaction in his foot. As a 3rd year starter in 14 games (533 defensive snaps, 52 special teams snaps), Lotulelei's stats were 13 tackles, 9 assists, 1 sack, 1 forced fumble, and two pass deflections. In comparison, Butler's rookie season (2016) as a back-up playing in 10 games (225 defensive snaps, 42 special teams snaps) 5 tackles, 8 assists, 1.5 sack, 1 pass deflection, and two blocked field goals. The difference between a rookie DT minus 6 games vs. a 3rd year DT minus 2 games was:

-8 tackles
-1 assists
-1 pass deflection
-1 forced fumbles
+.5 sack
+2 blocked field goals

This was the statistical difference with Star also having an additional 308 defensive and 10 special teams snaps. 

On a per snap basis...

2015 Star (Year 3)
Tackles: 0.022
Assists: 0.015
Pass Deflections: 0.003
Forced Fumbles: 0.002
Sacks: 0.002
Blocked FGs: 0

2016 Butler (Rookie)
Tackles: 0.019
Assists: 0.03
Pass Deflections: 0.004
Forced Fumbles: 0
Sacks:  0.006
Blocked FGs: 0.007

Difference between 2016 Butler vs. 2015 Lotulelei
-0.003 tackles
+0.015 assists
+0.001 pass deflections
-0.002 forced fumbles
+0.004 sacks
+0.007 blocked field goals

Butler's 2017 with 8 tackles, 5 assists, 1 pass deflection, 0 sacks, 0 forced fumbles, and 0 blocked field goals? 294 defensive and 61 special teams snaps. If you want to call 3 more tackles, 3 less assists, 1.5 less sacks, and 2 less blocked field goals (with equal forced fumbles + pass deflections) with an additional 69 defensive & 19 specials teams snaps a sophomore slump... ok...

I mean... are we so desperate for Butler to start that we put Short on the bench? I'm not following. The narrative that it was a luxury pick is bullshit, and the narrative that he's done nothing is bullshit. Has he gotten as many opportunities? No. Is that 100% on him? No.

"Insurance pick" = luxury pick. It's that simple. You're still forced to ignore immediate needs at positions of weakness to add talent at a position of strength due to the possibility of future need. That's pretty much the definition of a luxury pick.

[CPcavedweller]

On 8/12/2018 at 9:40 AM, Pup McBarky said:

Also, Stephon Gilmore, while not a pro-bowler, is better than any of our CBs. He's not known as a trash talker. He reminds me a bit of Gamble. Just does his job pretty damn well. 

 

He hasn't been much better than Bradberry. 

[CPcavedweller]

Did James even play against the Bills? I didn't notice him. 

[Pup McBarky]

13 minutes ago, CPcavedweller said:

He hasn't been much better than Bradberry. 

Except for the majority of the time, when he's been quite a bit better.

[LinvilleGorge]

20 minutes ago, CPcavedweller said:

Did James even play against the Bills? I didn't notice him. 

No. But honestly, if you don't notice a CB during a game he's probably doing a hell of a job.

[FugAllY'all]

Bradberry's shown plenty, he was our best db by far his rookie year and arguably last year despite that entire group slumping. I'm not sure what could be expected from Butler up to this point, he was buried behind Pro Bowl veterans, and directly backs up our most expensive lineman. It's not like he's been a total stiff out there, he's flashed almost every time he's seen significant game action.

[Icege]

2 hours ago, TheRed said:

I mean this turned out to be the definition of a luxury pick. We're relegated to just having a sliver of hope that he balls out this season because even if he does the odds of us having the cap space to keep him after next season are low because we wasted most of his rookie contract riding the bench. You could similarly make the same argument for Shaq as well. Regardless of how much talent and potential both of these guys may possess, you still cannot change the fact that they were first round picks whose affordable rookie years were basically squandered.

When you add on top of that what happened with guys like Worley, Kony Ealy, and Kelvin Benjamin as well, these recent drafts start to get dicey in a hurry.

I don't see it as being a luxury because KK signed a year later, if anything I look at it as a good thing because not only were we able to retain an All Pro DT, but we picked up somebody to replace him who could be as good who now doesn't have to replace him. I look at that as a good thing overall. Could we have gotten Hunter Henry? Sure, but we would have just Greg Olsen this season and no Ian Thomas since Henry tore his ACL (I think it was an ACL, it was one of the ligaments in the knee).

Many coaches will say that it takes 3 seasons to be what type of pro a player will be, 5 seasons for QBs. Rivera himself said that early on in an interview. Would I have wanted to get Shaq more snaps instead of TD just to increase the perceived value of his contract? Not at the expense of winning games. Shaq was learning multiple roles on the team, and I'm okay with him and Butler getting time to develop. Look at Rodgers. It took that man five seasons to finally take over for Favre and he was drafted hire than Butler, Bradberry, and Shaq. That isn't looked as a wasted pick because his rookie contract was "wasted." I would argue that if he wasn't going to play, not doing so while on a rookie contract is better than not doing so while on a much more expensive deal.

Ealy and Worley were ass. Despite recent events with KB, he wasn't awful. He had a great rookie season and we'll never know what could've been if he hadn't gotten hurt (though some would argue that we wouldn't be 15-1). With how desperate we were for a WR at that time, the pick still makes a lot of sense. It's easy to go back and say, "Here's the result, so here's the grade." Personally, I don't like that method as it dismisses valid concerns such as the state of the team (ex: ppl that point to Cam's stats but ignore what he did with Chud as an OC vs. Shula).

That 2016 draft overall sucked ass in the grand scheme, yea. Sanchez and Worley were doodoo, Sandland couldn't even make a team despite looking solid at the combine. If Butler and Bradberry continue to develop and we retain them, I'm okay with it. Anything is better than Hurney's shittacular 2009 class of Everette Brown, Sherrod Martin, Corvey Irvin, Mike Goodson, Tony Fiametta, Duke Robinson, and Captain Munnerlyn only to follow it up with the 2010 haul of Jimmy Clausen, Brandon LaFell, Armanti Edwards, Eric Norwood, Greg Hardy, David Gettis, Jordan Pugh, Tony Pike, R.J. Stanford, and Robert McClain. At least he got Cam Newton in 2011 when he also got Terrell McClain, Sione Fua, Brandon Hogan, Kealoha Pilares, Lawrence Wilson, Zackary Williams, and Lee Ziemba. 

Maybe that's why it's easier for me to shrug off the 2016 draft, because there's still potential to get two players out of it while over the course of three drafts Hurney landed Captain Munnerlyn in the 7th, Greg Hardy in the 5th, LaFell in the 3rd, and Cam Newton at #1. Meanwhile, in the drafts surrounding 2016 we got Shaq, Funchess, DWill, Mayo, CMC, Samuel, and Moton. We'll see if CAP, Elder, and Hall step up.