O-line not lost to Rivera (or maybe it is)

[BigSyke]

2 hours ago, thefuzz said:

Our "bad O line" has a lot to do with scheme, and the QB.

The scheme is bad, period.  Hopefully CMC, Samuel, and Moore can help out a bit with this.

Cam likes to hold the ball, our WR's have had trouble getting separation, and teams have figured out that Cam and his crew aren't great against the blitz.

I do not think that Cam can't beat the blitz, but I do think our scheme has made it harder to do so.

 

Also, to add.  Anyone who thinks that DG didn't do a good job with the line doesn't understand football, the salary cap, or injuries.

 

Cause he prefers to hit the deep threat all the time. That changes when he starts checking down to CMC, CJ, and DJ.

Also  hopefully the Norv offense mixed with faster wr will help Cam get the ball out faster.

[juliosantos]

our oline is hands down one of the worsts , so pissed we lost daryl , he was great last year . i do like moton but i wanted him to guard . matt kalil is the fourth worst tackle i ever seen  for us , bell , remmers , chandler then kalil . he is terrible . hes a huge problem now heres to the spot that the white buffalo made perfection , now its a glaring need with silabitcho most likley starting , not looking good 

[top dawg]

29 minutes ago, stbugs said:

Cotchery just cleanly catching the ball, a healthy Stewart and Tolbert not sucking would have made just as a big a difference.

Also, you keep complaining about luxury picks. If Moore, Jackson and Gaulden don’t start aren’t they the same? I’d say G/Cs like Price/Daniels would have been much more warranted given our hole at LG and C in 2019.

We certainly didn’t address this weakness as you said we did because in one injury we now have what might be he worst starting LG in the league. 

Cotchery did make that catch. Stewart likely wasn't going to run over the best defense in the league, and everyone knows why we lost the game. Now that that's out of the way...

Dude, on what planet is a WR, CB, and potential safety a luxury pick? They were ALL weaknesses (which is kind of a shame being that we invested two day two picks and a day three pick on CBs the year prior, not to mention the disappointment that was Benjamin, and the widespread injuries across our receiver group [including Olsen])? We never ever want to find ourselves without a legitimate wide receiver corps again. 

As for "the worst LG in the league," that's unsubstantiated hyperbole at the moment. The fact is injuries are ALWAYS a potential issue, but GMs still have to pick and choose based upon the current status of their team. At times, the injury bug changes everything, and sometimes not. In a period of NFL history where teams have noticeably weak O-line or depth on the O-line, you're taking chances and wishing for the best any way you slice it.

 

[BigSyke]

3 hours ago, Cracka McNasty said:

A few things:

There are only like, 3 or 4 teams in the NFL who's fanbases actually like their O-lines these days. O-Line play has dropped off significantly since the last lockout due to the rise of the spread offense in college and the limited amount of practice reps with pads that the young guys get now. There was an article in the offseason about the dropoff in O-Line play, I suggest some read it.

Secondly, aside from 2016 when the entire line minus Norwell died, and 2014 when Rivera was starting Amini over Norwell and GMan provided us with the once in a generation talent of Byron Bell to be our LT, our line has been average to above average believe it or not. I know a lot don't want to believe it, but it's true. Shula has been the #1 reason they have looked as bad as they did. 

Thirdly, getting rid of Gross, and Smitty, while hurting us in the short term and caused many butts to be hurt, freed up the money to extend Luke and Cam to long term deals... which is a good thing long term, at least in my opinion.

Lastly, those who bitch and moan about how our O-Line sucks have never been able to provide a respectable answer about who Gettleman should have signed/drafted in the place of those we had in the rounds where we did take some (other than Whitworth over Kalil, which I will completely agree with everyone who said that because I never wanted Matt to begin with) that would not have hurt us as we attempted to get out of the Cap hell that Hurney originally put us in. In that same time frame he was able to find all pros in the 3rd, 4th, and UDFA... not bad. Which is why I ultimately feel like it was Shula's failure to scheme around his weak areas. 

So just a little bit of perspective on the O-Line. There's really no one out there that can improve our line right now unfortunately. We are going to roll with who we have, but we all need to agree that Amini should not be the starting LG. We've seen that episode before. It sucks and something better should be available, like Larsen, Sirles, or even the UDFA dude we just signed.

Mitchell Schwartz was available in free agency after Remmers's terrible SB  game. He signed a 5 year deal worth 6.6 mill with Chiefs. He has performed well at RT and has had great games vs Von Miller.

Also I know Daryl Williams was on the team but he wasn't ready yet. 

Still, they let Remmers continue to be right tackle after that SB performance.LOL

[Rags]

6 hours ago, Snake said:

It is that simple you just choose not to except it. 

you're the gm

fix the oline this year while retaining all the ugrades we got

go.

[Cuttinedge]

8 hours ago, Black&BlueBubba said:

The problem with that is he will never get a chance because he is taking the majority of the reps at center to try to keep Ryan Kahlil fresh.  He won't have a chance to compete for G.  Let's hope they let Roten take the C reps and give Larsen a chance at LG. Roten looked good last night.  

Exactly how can anyone win the job over pancake  when not given a chance 

[Snake]

6 hours ago, thefuzz said:

Our "bad O line" has a lot to do with scheme, and the QB.

The scheme is bad, period.  Hopefully CMC, Samuel, and Moore can help out a bit with this.

Cam likes to hold the ball, our WR's have had trouble getting separation, and teams have figured out that Cam and his crew aren't great against the blitz.

I do not think that Cam can't beat the blitz, but I do think our scheme has made it harder to do so.

 

Also, to add.  Anyone who thinks that DG didn't do a good job with the line doesn't understand football, the salary cap, or injuries.

I don't think scheme has anything to do with our lack of being able to run the ball. We are just not very talented on our line. Scheme will help overall some but we seriously can't start the season with Kalil and Amini. That's just asking for bad things to happen. Unfortunately I'm not sure JR did secure that fate when he demanded M. Kalil and Ryan stay on the same team. 

[bigdog10]

9 hours ago, countryboi said:

Ron is trying to make play the hand he is dealt. He has to know the line is trash, but at all the answers suck. Personally I would be giving Larsen the reps at LG but I don’t coach anything

His hands are tied with Larsen. You can’t risk injury to the only capable backup center especially how spotty Ryan has been the last two years. 

You put Larsen in at guard and he gets hurt and then Ryan goes down, we wouldn’t be able to field a competitive team. 

[Rags]

21 minutes ago, stbugs said:

I would have used the extra 3rd for Norwell (or the regular 2019 3rd knowing we have the comp) and whatever lower pick we needed and traded up in the second for Hernandez or Daniels. Daniels went 39th and Indy had 36/37. I wanted Daniels because he could fill the guard void this year and C next. We wouldn’t have Donte (or maybe Gaulden since we had 85 and 88, could have used those) but our OL would still be OK.

Would have just lost one DB and/or someone like Haynes, but no Amini and a better C after Ryan. 

"Lower pick" lol

The #41 overall pick went for a 2nd and a 3rd.  36 or 37 would've been more than that.

Never mind the fact that you seem to shrug off our secondary woes. Without this young blood that both seem like they'll be having some playing team this season we'd be a lot worse off at S and CB, especially with the Crockrell injury.  So even if we traded up, our secondary would be even worse than what our o-line is right now.

 

So GM, how would you fix the secondary?

[Cuttinedge]

I’m afraid amini would make Shane Fua look like a all pro DT. 

  I agree I’ve never seen a guard thrown on his azz as much as amini.  It’s dam right embarrassing 

how’s the Oline contain their laughter during film sessions 

[top dawg]

2 hours ago, stbugs said:

You are being obtuse. Cotchery should have made a clean catch instead of bumbling it and letting it go to replay. Also, it’s clear you have a thing against DG so this is silly. Butler’s been playing about 40% of snaps once he got past the knee injury. Shaq has played way more than that. As much as I despise KB now, he was a starter and by far led us in yardage while he wasn’t hurt. Classifying a WR with 1900+ yards and 16 TDs in his first two years as a disappointment is pretty funny. Everyone calls them busts and luxuries so if Donte, Moore and Gaulden don’t play as much this year and don’t start, they should be considered luxuries as well. You know what I meant. Does Moore have to exceed 1000 yards and 9 TDs this year to not be a disappointment to you?

Amini is the worst guard. Go show me anyone guard who’s been knocked on his ass more in limited playing time/camp than Amini.

You clearly haven’t watched Amini play last year and in camp. He’s literally the worst OL I have seen. Some people have issues with speed or strength but this guy whiffs and gets knocked down by DTs left and right.

No, just being real. I haven't heard anyone in the national media or on the Huddle refer to Moore, Jackson or Gaulden as luxury picks. It's simply not in the realm of reality. Moreover, you got the wrong guy if you think that I define a luxury pick by how much production or playing time that a guy gets his rookie season. Just like I told you that it's not as simple as Hurney or G-man being completely good or completely bad, it's overly simplistic to judge a rookie by such  black and white lines. 

A luxury pick is a pick where you draft at a position of strength especially in the first round, particularly when you pass on highly graded players at positions of need. No way we should have passed on Landon Collins, for example. 

I just call it like I see it. Like I have told others, there are more than a few posts of mine where I fully supported Dave Gettleman. Others can't say the same of themselves and Marty Hurney. I try to be objective. When I see people claim Gettleman was the next best thing since ice cream, sure I cringe because it's not true, and time has certainly bared that out. He made some questionable moves and was dogmatic in his philosophies and approach to the game. It bit us in the ass at a time when we should have been at least competing for a championship if not winning one. If Hurney morphs into a Gettleman clone, or reverts back to his old ways, you'll see me being just as critical of him, if not more so, considering he got a Mulligan.

Amini is Amini. If I didn't think there were problems with him and Kalil, I wouldn't have started the thread. I'm just try to be less emotional and more analytical about the problems. 

[Rags]

4 hours ago, stbugs said:

Lol. Learn to read. I said I’d use a 2nd, next year’s 3rd and another lower pick to get there.

Well sir, seeing as how you want another answer in my trade case, I’d still have 85 and 88, which with som other considerations should be enough value to get back 62 and 102 and at those picks Donte Jackson or Isiah Oliver (who is doing very well and may start) and Ian Thomas are right there.

Seeing the ridiculous glut at safety I realize I could have easily plucked Reid or Vaccaro before the Cyprien injury.

So now, instead of Gaulden, our next year’s 3rd (still have Norwell’s 3rd) and like Haynes, I have Vaccaro/Reid and James Daniels. I still have a young CB, safety depth and an actual LG this year/Ryan’s replacement next year. I concentrate on DE, S and more OL depth in the first 4 rounds next year. Especially since 4-3 looks really good in the 1st next year. 

How’d I do?

62 Issiah Oliver is already off the board, and you can make the argument that Jackson would be  as well. Keep in mind a big reason Jackson was drafted is his speed and attitude, both things we severely lacked in the secondary last year. Speed WRs gave us fits last year. 

Pick 102 - Pick 112 cost a future third rounder. 102 would obviously cost around that, maybe more. You already treaded next years third. How you gonna get 102?

You see the point I'm trying to make here isn't that your plan is bad, it's that it's gonna cost something. New holes are gonna open up. Problems arise. Stopgaps have to be found. There's not a team in this leauge that doesn't have a weakspot. 

Is Aimini ideal? No, not at all, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't a plan to try and upgrade him. Hell there still might be. A veteran OG cut is probably on our radar.

Also, uour mortgaging the future to fix a more immediate need because you really like a prospect is eerily Marty 1.0., ironically. Doesn't mean those players will be bad, but...

[bigdog10]

19 hours ago, stbugs said:

That makes no sense. Van Roten can play C. Your example is the same is Ryan gets hurt and Larsen does after coming in for Ryan.

Leaving in Amini opens up the worst case scenario of losing Cam. 

You can mask inefficiencies at guard. You can not mask inefficiencies at center. 

Want to get Cam killed?  Give him a center that isn’t calling out the right protections. 

[Pup McBarky]

17 minutes ago, bigdog10 said:

You can mask inefficiencies at guard. You can not mask inefficiencies at center. 

Want to get Cam killed?  Give him a center that isn’t calling out the right protections. 

If Van Roten has a problem calling out the right protections, he wouldn't be on the team. All backup centers, Larsen included, will occasionally call the wrong protections simply because of lack of game experience. Hell, starting centers call the wrong protections at times. But no NFL center, starter or backup, who chronically calls the wrong protections, is gonna be employed long.