Game of Thrones - Season 8

[Bronn]

8 hours ago, TbTeRRoR said:

They don't have the balls to kill someone with steel......      

 

btw speaking of where does this eunuchs and poison stuff come from? In the Belgariad the eunuch they pick up in Nissara? (too lazy to get the correct info) but yeah that swampy place.  That guy has a thing for poisons as well.  Has this some relation in real life, fantasy in general or is this slightly ripped from  David Eddings?

Nah eunuchs have always been a thing IRL. Even back to Sumeria. It was usually done as a form of control to slaves, although some people voluntarily do it for religious reasons, etc.

The poison relationship, at least in Martin's work, I think relates to the line often used that "poison is woman's work." He uses that in several instances. Eunuchs like Varys are equated to women and/or schemers that kill in the shadows, or delicately. Eunuchs like the Unsullied are of the slave style, in which they are castrated for control, but also taught to fight and be militaristic. 

[Zaximus]

I never expected GoT to go the way I want, that's not that show.      But the show is just rushed and it shows bad.    Guess those guys have a Star Wars trilogy to make so they want to get out fast.   HBO said the'yd pay for 10 episodes but they said they were fine.     That is the problem.

I really, really hope we get the books because the rush job on the show has made me even more excited for the possibility even though I know it may not happen.    

[d-dave]

It's been interesting to read the comments here.  Lots of folks I agree with, many I do.

What's really great about GoT is how it has such a HUGE web of influence across the globe.  While it may not be the BEST show ever, it will certainly be one of the most important shows of all time (until it is displaced in the future).

Good writing is hard.  That's the reality.  Whether it's getting known in the writing circles or the act of putting words to scripts, if good writing was so easy - everyone would have it.  That also includes the storytelling arcs of characters.  

I am really looking forward to seeing how it all ends.  I also think that the world of Game of Thrones is rife with more stories to tell.  It's like a super detailed D&D campaign setting.  There's SO many stories in the world that are interesting and to be told!

[Darth Biscuit]

6 minutes ago, d-dave said:

It's been interesting to read the comments here.  Lots of folks I agree with, many I do.

What's really great about GoT is how it has such a HUGE web of influence across the globe.  While it may not be the BEST show ever, it will certainly be one of the most important shows of all time (until it is displaced in the future).

Good writing is hard.  That's the reality.  Whether it's getting known in the writing circles or the act of putting words to scripts, if good writing was so easy - everyone would have it.  That also includes the storytelling arcs of characters.  

I am really looking forward to seeing how it all ends.  I also think that the world of Game of Thrones is rife with more stories to tell.  It's like a super detailed D&D campaign setting.  There's SO many stories in the world that are interesting and to be told!

I agree, and I still love the show even though I've complained about some stuff.  It seems like they put more emphasis on making S8 "epic" and less emphasis on making it a great story.

[Burnout189]

Probably the best comparison I have seen of the last few season of GoT is that it has a Full Metal Alchemist problem going on. Where the show went beyond the original source material before it was finished and the shows writers didn't know quite how they wanted to tell the story's end in the most satisfying and clear fashion.

[Proudiddy]

Wish I wouldve remembered this thread was here earlier...  facebook doesnt provide really in-depth discussions for GOT lol, so outside of one friend and my wife, I really have no other outlet to discuss the show with...

That being said, I saw how a lot of people were mad about E5 and felt like the writers completely destroyed 10 years worth of story and character arcs.  I dont agree.  The only issue I really had with any of the characters stories in E5 was Jaime and Cersei, but even in that case, their demise made sense in the vein of who they were...  I was just pissed because I spent most of the series hating Jaime and hoping someone would murder him, but then he showed nobility and integrity...  and outside of the whole incest thing, which apparently isnt that big of a deal in their universe anyway, he seemed to have become a redemptive figure - one you could pull for.  Then he leaves Cersei to go fight for the survival of humanity and even had Brienne vouch for him, and I'm like, "alright, I can pull for this guy."  Then he takes Brienne's virginity seemingly out if the desire for one last conquest, uses her like a cheap hooker, then abandons her to go back to Cersei, justifying it by saying he's "hateful."  Nah man...  you haven't been for the last few seasons.  That just seemed stupid and cheap on the writer's part.  It was an easy out to tie up his story with Cersei, when just as easily he could have stayed and built on what he became in Winterfell.  Then, after seasons of virtually everyone pulling for Cersei to meet a vicious, tortuous death for all of the evil she's done, she suddenly becomes a quivering, cowering, crybaby idiot in complete denial and delusion who dies in a collapsing building...  and ok, I get it, her and Jaime came in the world together, and they left together... there is something fitting about that ending, but not in the context of what we already knew about them building up to that moment.  Again, a cheap, easy out for the writers.

I dont understand the Dany outrage.  Yes, it seems like she flipped in a second and suddenly throw out all of her core beliefs and decided to take after ol' dad and "burn them all."  But, as I've been telling my wife, Dany was slowly evolving to that.  If you just take E5 in a vacuum, then yeah, it's jarring...  but, I've been saying every episode of this season as my wife and I were watching that someone was going to have to take her out because she was growing unstable...  her core values changed long ago.  She went from an "of the people," populist-type of leader, to a power-hungry, all-consumed dictator, and that change was building for at least two seasons.  So, I saw it coming and wasnt bothered by it.  In fact, I caught in E4 where Tyrion and Varys were discussing Jon and Dany where Tyrion said something along the lines of "you wouldn't" to Varys, which I immediately assumed that he knew Varys was thinking of poisoning Dany, and I hoped he would succeed...  but, then again, if Varys had succeeded, the conflict and story for the finale is completely destroyed.

This is where I feel like things arent as bad as people are making it out to be...  because now that Dany has shown herself to be unstable and essentially, "The Mad Queen," it has setup an impassable conflict between Dany and Jon, Tyrion, Sansa, and Arya.  The Starks and Tyrion can't possibly continue to serve her as their queen in peace.  I have a feeling that Arya is going to kill Dany, as I think the writers emphasized Arya's interaction with the mother and child who ended up dead for that very reason...  it gave Arya an intimate experience on the ground of the massacre that will motivate her to take Dany out.  I've heard a theory that Jon will "break the wheel," and divide the 7 kingdoms into distinct territories so that they won't serve under one throne, but without someone killing Arya, idk how Jon could do so without Dany killing him...  thus, I think Arya will take care of it, although I don't know how they will assassinate Dany with her army still in place either, so it will be interesting.

Other than those points, I have to say, I do believe this season is sloppy compared to seasons past.  Yes, it feels rushed and reckless to some degree...  there is more holes in the writing than in any season past, but it shows more in the overall tempo and production as well...  the continuity errors that have happened are indicative of the sloppiness and rushed-approach - the coffee cup, Jaime grew his hand back for his final embrace with Cersei, and apparently now people have caught a soldier or someone wearing modern-day sneakers in E5, lol...  they had two years to get this together, so those things should've never happened.  So, in that sense, yeah, it can feel like the showrunners have mailed it in to a degree.

All of that being said, it's still the best show I've ever seen on television in my lifetime and likely won't be rivaled for a long while (Breaking Bad is probably second).  And FWIW, I just read an article yesterday that said pretty much everything that happened in E5, despite all of the outrage, was exactly the key beats that George R.R. Martin had planned to end the books with.

[CRA]

Just now, Zaximus said:

I never expected GoT to go the way I want, that's not that show.      But the show is just rushed and it shows bad.    Guess those guys have a Star Wars trilogy to make so they want to get out fast.   HBO said the'yd pay for 10 episodes but they said they were fine.     That is the problem.

I really, really hope we get the books because the rush job on the show has made me even more excited for the possibility even though I know it may not happen.    

speaking of Star Wars.  GOT turned Dany heel less effectively than they did Anakin in those crappy Natalie Portman era Star Wars.  

[Proudiddy]

48 minutes ago, Burnout189 said:

Probably the best comparison I have seen of the last few season of GoT is that it has a Full Metal Alchemist problem going on. Where the show went beyond the original source material before it was finished and the shows writers didn't know quite how they wanted to tell the story's end in the most satisfying and clear fashion.

Pacing with source material had been the demise of many a great show.

Walking Dead was my favorite show on television (before I watched GoT or Breaking Bad), and they absolutely ruined it by about S4 or 5 because it was clear they were trying to slow the pace down to avoid overrunning the source material...  instead of jumping past the source material, they decided to jump the shark instead lol.  I haven't watched an episode in almost 2 seasons now.

My wife and I also just binge watched A Handmaiden's Tale.  Great premise and concept based off of the source material, but we both felt it went completely off the rails because again, it appeared they tried to slow the pacing down to avoid getting to the end of the source material.  Season 2 was beyond stupid.

[CRA]

17 minutes ago, Proudiddy said:

Wish I wouldve remembered this thread was here earlier...  facebook doesnt provide really in-depth discussions for GOT lol, so outside of one friend and my wife, I really have no other outlet to discuss the show with...

That being said, I saw how a lot of people were mad about E5 and felt like the writers completely destroyed 10 years worth of story and character arcs.  I dont agree.  The only issue I really had with any of the characters stories in E5 was Jaime and Cersei, but even in that case, their demise made sense in the vein of who they were...  I was just pissed because I spent most of the series hating Jaime and hoping someone would murder him, but then he showed nobility and integrity...  and outside of the whole incest thing, which apparently isnt that big of a deal in their universe anyway, he seemed to have become a redemptive figure - one you could pull for.  Then he leaves Cersei to go fight for the survival of humanity and even had Brienne vouch for him, and I'm like, "alright, I can pull for this guy."  Then he takes Brienne's virginity seemingly out if the desire for one last conquest, uses her like a cheap hooker, then abandons her to go back to Cersei, justifying it by saying he's "hateful."  Nah man...  you haven't been for the last few seasons.  That just seemed stupid and cheap on the writer's part.  It was an easy out to tie up his story with Cersei, when just as easily he could have stayed and built on what he became in Winterfell.  Then, after seasons of virtually everyone pulling for Cersei to meet a vicious, tortuous death for all of the evil she's done, she suddenly becomes a quivering, cowering, crybaby idiot in complete denial and delusion who dies in a collapsing building...  and ok, I get it, her and Jaime came in the world together, and they left together... there is something fitting about that ending, but not in the context of what we already knew about them building up to that moment.  Again, a cheap, easy out for the writers.

I dont understand the Dany outrage.  Yes, it seems like she flipped in a second and suddenly throw out all of her core beliefs and decided to take after ol' dad and "burn them all."  But, as I've been telling my wife, Dany was slowly evolving to that.  If you just take E5 in a vacuum, then yeah, it's jarring...  but, I've been saying every episode of this season as my wife and I were watching that someone was going to have to take her out because she was growing unstable...  her core values changed long ago.  She went from an "of the people," populist-type of leader, to a power-hungry, all-consumed dictator, and that change was building for at least two seasons.  So, I saw it coming and wasnt bothered by it.  In fact, I caught in E4 where Tyrion and Varys were discussing Jon and Dany where Tyrion said something along the lines of "you wouldn't" to Varys, which I immediately assumed that he knew Varys was thinking of poisoning Dany, and I hoped he would succeed...  but, then again, if Varys had succeeded, the conflict and story for the finale is completely destroyed.

This is where I feel like things arent as bad as people are making it out to be...  because now that Dany has shown herself to be unstable and essentially, "The Mad Queen," it has setup an impassable conflict between Dany and Jon, Tyrion, Sansa, and Arya.  The Starks and Tyrion can't possibly continue to serve her as their queen in peace.  I have a feeling that Arya is going to kill Dany, as I think the writers emphasized Arya's interaction with the mother and child who ended up dead for that very reason...  it gave Arya an intimate experience on the ground of the massacre that will motivate her to take Dany out.  I've heard a theory that Jon will "break the wheel," and divide the 7 kingdoms into distinct territories so that they won't serve under one throne, but without someone killing Arya, idk how Jon could do so without Dany killing him...  thus, I think Arya will take care of it, although I don't know how they will assassinate Dany with her army still in place either, so it will be interesting.

Other than those points, I have to say, I do believe this season is sloppy compared to seasons past.  Yes, it feels rushed and reckless to some degree...  there is more holes in the writing than in any season past, but it shows more in the overall tempo and production as well...  the continuity errors that have happened are indicative of the sloppiness and rushed-approach - the coffee cup, Jaime grew his hand back for his final embrace with Cersei, and apparently now people have caught a soldier or someone wearing modern-day sneakers in E5, lol...  they had two years to get this together, so those things should've never happened.  So, in that sense, yeah, it can feel like the showrunners have mailed it in to a degree.

All of that being said, it's still the best show I've ever seen on television in my lifetime and likely won't be rivaled for a long while (Breaking Bad is probably second).  And FWIW, I just read an article yesterday that said pretty much everything that happened in E5, despite all of the outrage, was exactly the key beats that George R.R. Martin had planned to end the books with.

these are TV guys.  They aren't following Martin's path IMO.  For example, I think Martin has Jon Snow essentially doing what they gave to Arya in terms of the WW.  If you listen to both GRRM and DD...I think that is evident.   TV folks simply want shock value.  They actually view it as a negative that people are able to figure out a storyline.  So if it gets figured out they then focus on how they can fool the audience.  GRRM has commented about the retard TV logic that is often applied and IMO DD essentially admitted such. 

but the story now basically sets up Arya to be the game changer.  Which means she won't.  Too predictable now and they want you to think Arya gonna handle business.  So they like will continue to make Snow be punk extra nothing...then at the last minute he does what is needed. 

[Zaximus]

It's been a show where you understand people's motivations, and I don't care if I agree or not, but rushing it the way they have throws that out of the door and is a real disservice to the characters.    Having Vary's fate over the course of 2 episodes (barely 2, really just 1) does a big disservice to him.     I knew Dany would be a bad guy since season 1 and I don't care, but we needed some more context instead of a couple episode snap.    I don't mind the outcomes at all for anything that has happened I just don't agree with the short journey to get there in certain circumstances.      I'm still thinking Sansa or Bran or someone leads at the end and I'm OK with that, if Sansa wins at least I feel that was given 

[Proudiddy]

3 minutes ago, Zaximus said:

It's been a show where you understand people's motivations, and I don't care if I agree or not, but rushing it the way they have throws that out of the door and is a real disservice to the characters.    Having Vary's fate over the course of 2 episodes (barely 2, really just 1) does a big disservice to him.     I knew Dany would be a bad guy since season 1 and I don't care, but we needed some more context instead of a couple episode snap.    I don't mind the outcomes at all for anything that has happened I just don't agree with the short journey to get there in certain circumstances.      I'm still thinking Sansa or Bran or someone leads at the end and I'm OK with that, if Sansa wins at least I feel that was given 

Agreed.  Although I have theorized that Arya will kill Dany and then Jon, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Tyrion will find a way to delegate leadership, I also think it's entirely possible that Jon, Dany, and Arya end up dead and something else happens.  But, yes, this season has felt like it left out all of the minutiae that made the show what it was for the first 7 seasons...  but, it's because D+D gave themselves a self-imposed deadline to wrap it up when they didn't necessarily have to...  in a sports metaphor, Game of Thrones is essentially Barry Sanders lol.  They didnt have to call it quits, and at the point they have, in their prime, it feels rushed and disappointing...  but, they're still going out on top.

[Proudiddy]

Really insightful thread where a guy explains why we all may feel some sense of dissatisfaction with S8.  The guy seems to have hit the nail on the head:

 

[Proudiddy]

19 minutes ago, CRA said:

these are TV guys.  They aren't following Martin's path IMO.  For example, I think Martin has Jon Snow essentially doing what they gave to Arya in terms of the WW.  If you listen to both GRRM and DD...I think that is evident.   TV folks simply want shock value.  They actually view it as a negative that people are able to figure out a storyline.  So if it gets figured out they then focus on how they can fool the audience.  GRRM has commented about the retard TV logic that is often applied and IMO DD essentially admitted such. 

but the story now basically sets up Arya to be the game changer.  Which means she won't.  Too predictable now and they want you to think Arya gonna handle business.  So they like will continue to make Snow be punk extra nothing...then at the last minute he does what is needed. 

I agree about the tv audience versus readers and their need for shock value to overcome predictable storylines...  but what I was talking about was that feom what I read, GRRM said he already shared his planned ending points with D+D, and basically everything that happened in E5 was part of his plan...  I think it just felt cheapened to the audience because it was rushed.

[CRA]

1 hour ago, Proudiddy said:

I agree about the tv audience versus readers and their need for shock value to overcome predictable storylines...  but what I was talking about was that feom what I read, GRRM said he already shared his planned ending points with D+D, and basically everything that happened in E5 was part of his plan...  I think it just felt cheapened to the audience because it was rushed.

well I'll need to listen to more.   From my understand GRRM shared his vision.  But that doesn't mean they ran w/ it. 

my interpretation of it all has been the following.  

D&D said they didn't feel right about having it be Jon taking down the WW.  So they had planned from early on to have it be Arya instead.  Their big surprise.   I think they felt Snow was too predictable for their version and it was good opportunity for them to do something different. 

GRRM then broke down about how folks on TV will figure out the audience has picked up on the clues and foreshadowing and they often figure out what will happen.  He then talks about how TV folks than think that means they need to go change what some have figured out for shock/surprise.  Then goes into great detail about how doing that essentially fugs up the entire story you jus told.  Because those clues were intentionally dropped.  The story was told so some would figure out what will happen. 

I think GRRM has a different end game.  He shared his.   TV show was gonna do their own thing.  Even look at Cersei dying.  I think that is just a TV version and not a shared ending.  Maggie's prophecy on the TV show never mentioned her dying at the hands of her brother.  I think the reason they intentional left that out is because they were going to do their own ending.  

Will be interesting to hear more folks talk when this is over.  Especially GRRM.