Schefter: Lotulelei to Buffalo

[Ricky Spanish]

3 minutes ago, Proudiddy said:

But it wasn't one player.  Look at all the great players he cut that we have spent years since trying to replace.  Again, we won with the core Hurney built.  How do we know Hunrey wouldn't have won once Cam and Luke were in place and he built around them like Gettleman got to?  I'm not glorifying Hurney, I'm just saying Gettleman gets way too much credit and not enough blame and vice versa for Hurney.  Also, if it was you, who would you have extended - Tuner or Norwell?  I can't ever recall Norwell struggling once, so he would have been my choice.  Turner is ok, but he is not worth what he was paid, so when comparing the two, it appears Gettleman settled on the lesser of the two.  Again, it wasn't one player.

I would have done Norwell too, but RG apparently does more as a lineman by taking on more one on one matchups so I get why we did it. I've always liked Norwell more though. He's an underdog and everyone loves those. 

And Yeah we won with Hurney's core of Cam, Luke, TD, Olsen, and Stew. But Gettleman also had to cut Hurney's core of Anderson, Beason, Godfrey, Gamble, Smith, and Williams because their contracts were absolutely horrendous. Smitty is the only one I think we could have benefited from keeping in complete transparent honesty. 

Do you really think Hurney had the stones to get rid of all of those guys in order to keep the team together and competitive? Do you think he could have put the complementary vets in place around the core in order to take us to the super bowl? Gettleman found us guys like Coleman, cotchery, florence, adams, and Tillman.

Hurney found us guys like Nakamura and Justin Medlock...

Gettleman was a better pro scout than Hurney, I don't think anyone can argue that. He knew a player's worth in the system that Rivera was putting together and that is super important in fielding a competitive team. Hurney was a great 1st round drafter and hosed the Bears for Olsen. He was historically awful at contracts. 

Either way we had more success in a 5 year span under Gettleman than we had in over a decade under Hurney. 

So far, I really can't complain TOO much about what Hurney has done other than the kicker situation, and that pales in comparison to what he did his first time around. I agree with letting both of the guys walk, just like I agreed with letting Norman walk. I don't blame anyone for wanting the money they rightfully deserve.

Either way, I want Hurney gone the minute we find a new owner.

[The NFL Shield At Midfield]

oh and by the way, hurney was the acting GM when turner was extended.  he had little to nothing to do with the actual negotiation of the contract of course, but he could have stepped in and pulled the offer which is what i suppose all the armchair GMs on this site would have done had they been running the panthers at the time.

and maybe the $7.7 million that thomas davis is counting against the cap right this second would have helped too, but what do i know

[4Corners]

2 hours ago, Jeremy Igo said:

Most predicable news today.

Yet no one predicted it 

[grimesgoat]

6 minutes ago, Proudiddy said:

But it wasn't one player.  Look at all the great players he cut that we have spent years since trying to replace.  Again, we won with the core Hurney built.  How do we know Hunrey wouldn't have won once Cam and Luke were in place and he built around them like Gettleman got to?  I'm not glorifying Hurney, I'm just saying Gettleman gets way too much credit and not enough blame and vice versa for Hurney.  Also, if it was you, who would you have extended - Tuner or Norwell?  I can't ever recall Norwell struggling once, so he would have been my choice.  Turner is ok, but he is not worth what he was paid, so when comparing the two, it appears Gettleman settled on the lesser of the two.  Again, it wasn't one player.

I don't know the details of Norwell yet, but the Turner contract is reasonable and a thing of beauty.  Below are the cap hit.  When the salary gets whacky, we can cut him with little dead cap.  This is how you construct a contract for an 3x pro-bowler.

2018 7.7

2019 8.8

2020 12.0 (dead=6)

2021 14.5 (dead cap = 3)

[ImaginaryKev]

Norwell was a complete surprise, undrafted to All Pro. I'm personally glad these dudes are getting paid on a human level. But I mean, guards are replaceable and DT isn't the mess it was when we had to draft Fua and that other dude in the third round. We can afford to let them walk, as long as we hit on some draft pick. We need at least two very good players in this draft and for CMC to be a top ten RB. 

[NAS]

I am just glad he went to an AFC team and not a division or conference competitor. 

[The NFL Shield At Midfield]

1 minute ago, JustAQuestion said:

The real question: Does Buffalo want Star?

It takes two to tango

hmm, hadn't thought of it that way

[Proudiddy]

1 hour ago, Cracka McNasty said:

I would have done Norwell too, but RG apparently does more as a lineman by taking on more one on one matchups so I get why we did it. I've always liked Norwell more though. He's an underdog and everyone loves those. 

And Yeah we won with Hurney's core of Cam, Luke, TD, Olsen, and Stew. But Gettleman also had to cut Hurney's core of Anderson, Beason, Godfrey, Gamble, Smith, and Williams because their contracts were absolutely horrendous. Smitty is the only one I think we could have benefited from keeping in complete transparent honesty. 

Do you really think Hurney had the stones to get rid of all of those guys in order to keep the team together and competitive? Do you think he could have put the complementary vets in place around the core in order to take us to the super bowl? Gettleman found us guys like Coleman, cotchery, florence, adams, and Tillman.

Hurney found us guys like Nakamura and Justin Medlock...

Gettleman was a better pro scout than Hurney, I don't think anyone can argue that. He knew a player's worth in the system that Rivera was putting together and that is super important in fielding a competitive team. Hurney was a great 1st round drafter and hosed the Bears for Olsen. He was historically awful at contracts. 

Either way we had more success in a 5 year span under Gettleman than we had in over a decade under Hurney. 

So far, I really can't complain TOO much about what Hurney has done other than the kicker situation, and that pales in comparison to what he did his first time around. I agree with letting both of the guys walk, just like I agreed with letting Norman walk. I don't blame anyone for wanting the money they rightfully deserve.

Either way, I want Hurney gone the minute we find a new owner.

I agree with much of this...  just saying, the two can't be mutually exclusive.  Hurney can't be as horrible as he has been made out to be while Gettleman can't be the untouchable saint he has been painted to be by many here.  Your observations of both seem to be fair and reasonable.  I do believe GMan was the better pro scout of the two, whereas Hurney had an incredible ability to choose franchise-changing talent available in the draft to build around.  Hurney was horrible in his original tenure in managing contracts and cap while Gettleman knew how to manage it but was flawed in the inverse, as he took the philosophy of saving cap to a detrimental extreme.

Honestly, I really think Hurney was just doing what JR wanted with a lot of those contracts that put us in cap he'l the first time around...  so, now that JR is gone, I'm willing to see what he does with more autonomy.  I have hope that he learned from his mistakes, and outside of the Gano/Butker debacle, I can say I'm proud of how he has handled himself thus far, including letting Norwell and Star walk considering our needs and available cap.

[Proudiddy]

1 hour ago, The NFL Shield At Midfield said:

turner is a 3x pro bowler and would have probably been the top paid G on the market had he walked.  and you, i, and everybody reading this thread knows the huddle would have pitched an absolute poo fit if gettleman had just let him go.  it's easy to say this stuff in retrospect but at the time that extension was done turner was our second best lineman behind kalil, and arguably more important because he was younger and playing at an elite level then.   norwell was a good, up and coming guard at that point but he didn't have the same argument.  this is a pure hindsight argument.

Maybe for most that would make it, but I have argued that Turner has been overrated his entire tenure here.  I've watched him closely and have been more disappointed than I have been impressed, especially when Cam was taking all those illegal shots in '16.  For a guy who is supposed to be nasty, he sure let our franchise QB get beat to poo and did nothing after the fact.  He also got absolutely destroyed several times this last season.  So, my argument is not purely made in hindsight.  I would've opted for Norwell between the two before and after Turner's deal got done.  But, true...  what's done is done.

[Proudiddy]

1 hour ago, The NFL Shield At Midfield said:

matt kalil has the 10th highest average per year in the league among LTs.  going off memory but i think i saw someone on this board post that he has the 20th highest cap figure for LTs going into 2018 but i'm not sure.  even guys at his position that suck get paid, it's what the market dictates.

i know "herp gettlemoron overpaid for a trash LT so now we can't sign anybody" sounds good and all but matt kalil has the 9th highest cap figure on the panthers right now.  thomas davis and ryan kalil are both ahead of him.

 

TD and Ryan are both deserving of anything above Matt, as is 90% of the roster lol.  Even having only played 14 games in two years, Ryan is still worthy of more than a healthy Matt.  

And I'm not saying it to purely trash Gettleman.  The truth is, many were critical of giving Matt that deal in the first place, and although it's not the highest cap figure we have, it is higher than it should be.  I'm just pointing out if that had been Hurney signing him, that echoes of unforgivable sins would be endless.  I just mentioned Matt, along with his handling of WR and the secondary as downsides to his legacy here that many like to pretend is completely flawless.  We're in a slightly better position than we have been in some years, but it's still not good considering the holes we have and the age of the roster, and that can't be blamed on Hurney.

Really, I feel like both Hurney and Gettleman have dropped the ball in upgrading the roster in spite of the cap, as other teams who are a lot tighter have done it every year.  Both guys just aren' that creative honestly...  I still wish had JR set his mind on firing Gettleman, that he had done so when Beane was still in the building.  But, again, what's done is done.

[ickmule]

5 hours ago, *FreeFua* said:

It’s so us to let someone like Beane leave.

He’s only ended Buffalo’s long playoff drought, got rid of some fat and has built up a nice haul of picks to go get him a franchise QB.

All in one year.

That’s what makes being a Panther fan so difficult. This franchise rarely makes the right moves.  Hopefully that’s about to end.