"Run To Establish The Pass" And Other Rushing Advantage Stuff Is Actually A #Myth

[sml1950]

RTP and PTR is too simplistic a concept for today’s OCs.  They’re playing chess now, not checkers.  The idea now is to take advantage of the mismatches. If the D is in nickel you look to run and if they bring 8in the box you pass. This is why so many teams are going to no huddle.  It keeps the D from subbing and the play call takes advantage of this. This is also why the term RPO has become so pervasive.  Teams call two plays and wait to see how the D lines up before chosing the best mismatch.  It also easy to see that runs are not just handoffs anymore.  RBs are catching more passes, but it is essentially a running play.

[Doc Holiday]

7 minutes ago, sml1950 said:

RTP and PTR is too simplistic a concept for today’s OCs.  They’re playing chess now, not checkers.  The idea now is to take advantage of the mismatches. If the D is in nickel you look to run and if they bring 8in the box you pass. This is why so many teams are going to no huddle.  It keeps the D from subbing and the play call takes advantage of this. This is also why the term RPO has become so pervasive.  Teams call two plays and wait to see how the D lines up before chosing the best mismatch.  It also easy to see that runs are not just handoffs anymore.  RBs are catching more passes, but it is essentially a running play.

Good post

[Palmetto]

4 hours ago, Marcogreenbush said:

They're still pass heavy offenses . People respect their passing game that's why they could run the ball over teams . 

2017 was the least amount of passes Brees threw since 2009 even the Saints realize if they wanted to get back in the Playoffs they had to run and play defense. running the ball helps the defense

Ryans pass attempts have gone down 5 seasons in a row (on by 5 between 2016-17 but still down not up)

and these Qbs complete passes in the mid to high 60s

The Panthers dont need Newton throwing it around unless he's going to greatly improve on his accuracy and they go out and get way better WRs

[frash.exe]

2 hours ago, Doc Holiday said:

And @Saca312

It’s not, if you don’t understand why you need to run to establish the pass “on some teams” you don’t know what you’re talking about. And I mean not a fuging clue.

you don’t need to run to establish the pass if:

1. You have a great QB

2. You have good WR’s

if these two things apply to your team, then yeah you may not need to run the ball at all. But unless you have a Drew Brees, Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers back there you do!

running to set up the pass is extremely simple, you are trying to bait the Defense into bringing an extra defender into the box, to free up your WR’s.

This accomplishes 2 things.

1 makes things easier on the QB, 2 takes a defender off of whoever your best receiving threat is.

this is why you run the ball to open up the passing game. It sets up the passing game because you literally are pulling a defender out of the back field.(if you don’t understand this you’re dumb as bricks)

now this doesn’t work really well if you either have 1. Garbage QB who can’t hit the side of a barn or 2. Garbage Recievers who can’t get separation or can catch a ball.

If y’all u can’t open up your passing game by running the ball then your team is just terrible to begin with. 

lol get the fug off your high horse with that weak madden 06 color commentary garbage. i already explained why you and so many other ppl on here are way off the mark pages ago. the fact that you so steadfastly denounce what i say with this spoonfed poo proves nothing. it just shows how gullible you are.

and those three QBs you mentioned, they all work with great coordinators. mike mccarthy, sean payton, josh mcdaniels, those guys would transform our offense if we brought them in. not sure why we can’t pursue a great coordinator (and no i don’t think norv is up there with those guys. but i do think that the fact that ppl on here think he’s more than adequate in this role falls in line with their football opinions being way outdated, since he was a great OC like 25 years ago)

[Doc Holiday]

2 hours ago, frash.exe said:

lol get the fug off your high horse with that weak madden 06 color commentary garbage. i already explained why you and so many other ppl on here are way off the mark pages ago. the fact that you so steadfastly denounce what i say with this spoonfed poo proves nothing. it just shows how gullible you are.

and those three QBs you mentioned, they all work with great coordinators. mike mccarthy, sean payton, josh mcdaniels, those guys would transform our offense if we brought them in. not sure why we can’t pursue a great coordinator (and no i don’t think norv is up there with those guys. but i do think that the fact that ppl on here think he’s more than adequate in this role falls in line with their football opinions being way outdated, since he was a great OC like 25 years ago)

ROFL

you said nothing to counter my argument, not a damn thing. 

Go watch some football and learn something bro.

[frash.exe]

15 minutes ago, Doc Holiday said:

ROFL

you said nothing to counter my argument, not a damn thing. 

Go watch some football and learn something bro.

go get some more opinions from the fox pregame show bro

[Saca312]

statistics show that there's no difference if you run before you pass or any of that non-sense. that's a fact.

film and superbowl 52 also shows that you don't have to run before you pass. nick foles also dumps off the idea that you need an elite qb to be able to pass before you run.

yes, balance is also good. however, stop with the nonsense coaches from 1985 spout about needing to 'establish the run' or 'ground and pound' nonsense their granddaddies whine about.

this is 2018. not 1985.

 

[panthers55]

Is isn't that you have to run first it is you have to have a run game if your gameplan is to use playaction  passing and throw the ball vertically. Stats create generalizations which become.less useful the more you try to.make them apply to specific situations.

[panthers55]

13 hours ago, Saca312 said:

statistics show that there's no difference if you run before you pass or any of that non-sense. that's a fact.

film and superbowl 52 also shows that you don't have to run before you pass. nick foles also dumps off the idea that you need an elite qb to be able to pass before you run.

yes, balance is also good. however, stop with the nonsense coaches from 1985 spout about needing to 'establish the run' or 'ground and pound' nonsense their granddaddies whine about.

this is 2018. not 1985.

 

So do you think when Rivera says you have to run first he means every team has to run first or he means the Panthers do in order to run our offense? I suspect the latter while your argument assumes the former.

[top dawg]

All I continue to hear in this thread is more justification and mental gymnastics about a stat that is basically nonsensical in the way that it was applied.  No one is saying that you have to run first, but just that you have to run. Now establishing the run or the pass isn't true ALL of the time,  just most of the time,  especially when you play the top teams, because if you don't, a good team will focus on your strength and beat you into the ground because they don't have to concern themselves with your weakness. So, yeah,  it's good to establish one to facilitate the other. 

One thing about it,  which is pretty much undeniable though I've had some comically try to suggest something different,  any coach worth his salt will run you into the ground as long as it's working. And why wouldn't they? There's absolutely no need to pass if a team can't stop the run.  That's almost like the holy grail of football.  The phrase "run you into the ground" exists for a reason. 

All that being said, running to set up the pass and passing to set up the run go hand in hand.  It's really not a which-came-first-chicken-or-egg matter,  and to suggest that it is just shows a lack of understanding of the intent of an old football saying.  I see it as basically arguing about nothing. 

[Doc Holiday]

2 hours ago, top dawg said:

All I continue to hear in this thread is more justification and mental gymnastics about a stat that is basically nonsensical in the way that it was applied.  No one is saying that you have to run first, but just that you have to run. Now establishing the run or the pass isn't true ALL of the time,  just most of the time,  especially when you play the top teams, because if you don't, a good team will focus on your strength and beat you into the ground because they don't have to concern themselves with your weakness. So, yeah,  it's good to establish one to facilitate the other. 

One thing about it,  which is pretty much undeniable though I've had some comically try to suggest something different,  any coach worth his salt will run you into the ground as long as it's working. And why wouldn't they? There's absolutely no need to pass if a team can't stop the run.  That's almost like the holy grail of football.  The phrase "run you into the ground" exists for a reason. 

All that being said, running to set up the pass and passing to set up the run go hand in hand.  It's really not a which-came-first-chicken-or-egg matter,  and to suggest that it is just shows a lack of understanding of the intent of an old football saying.  I see it as basically arguing about nothing. 

QFT! Pie too!

[panthers55]

20 hours ago, Saca312 said:

statistics show that there's no difference if you run before you pass or any of that non-sense. that's a fact.

film and superbowl 52 also shows that you don't have to run before you pass. nick foles also dumps off the idea that you need an elite qb to be able to pass before you run.

yes, balance is also good. however, stop with the nonsense coaches from 1985 spout about needing to 'establish the run' or 'ground and pound' nonsense their granddaddies whine about.

this is 2018. not 1985.

 

You need to have a running attack or the threat of one plain and simple. I have no clue who is saying you can't pass unless you run first. I am sure Ron isn't. He knows like anyone who has coached or played at anything above Pop Warner that you do what you do best and what the defense doesn't do well. So against teams poor against the pass you come out throwing. Against defenses poor against the run, you come out running. But what you do on play 3 or 4, depends on what happened on play 1 and 2 and down and distance. Your whole argument makes no sense to me. Besides what does Philly running their WCO offense have to do with us who run a different scheme?

[Cartel de Carolina]

On 2/16/2018 at 10:01 PM, d-dave said:

There's certainly a lot of truth in the idea the QB play is more important than an effective running game.  While everyone will point to the Eagles and the Pats success passing, I think people are losing the point of the game to game play which is that you do need some semblance of balance in your offense.

Maybe balance isn't the correct work, but rather the idea that you can hit someone for a big play from a formation by either handing the ball off or throwing it.  If you have a poo running game, no one will bite on your play action.  If you have a threatening running game (like the Eagles), then people will have to defend that play.

There is truth to pulling safety's down and getting LBs to "bite" on the action, but you also have to execute the play.

The whole thing is infinitely more complicated than the diagrams suggest.  Look at Jacksonville.  They rode their running game to the AFC Champ.  They almost beat the Pats.  In 2015, we had one of the most efficient running games, and it took us to the Super Bowl.

You need both, or at least the threat of both.  If a team sells out to shut down your running game, you have to be able to adapt and throw the ball well.  If a team is going to play coverage, you have to be able to pound the rock.

Even if you know a team is going to pass and you can commit 100% to the pass / coverage. You still can not shut down a play designed to beat your coverage that is executed well. For example you call a cover 2 zone. you know they will pass. well you still have the problem of zone flooding and spacing. impossible to cover a flood concept executed well in a pure zone scheme. The S is going to have to choose, take the deep route or take the mid level route. Or the CB is going to have to choose to take the short of mid level route. That is why pressure and disguising and changing up coverage is very important. 

 

[LinvilleGorge]

7 minutes ago, Cartel de Carolina said:

Even if you know a team is going to pass and you can commit 100% to the pass / coverage. You still can not shut down a play designed to beat your coverage that is executed well. For example you call a cover 2 zone. you know they will pass. well you still have the problem of zone flooding and spacing. impossible to cover a flood concept executed well in a pure zone scheme. The S is going to have to choose, take the deep route or take the mid level route. Or the CB is going to have to choose to take the short of mid level route. That is why pressure and disguising and changing up coverage is very important. 

 

Well, you can hit the QB really fuging hard. Can't complete passes from off of your back. It's why pass rushers are paid so well.