Ted Ginn 2.0

[RealisticPanther]

7 minutes ago, MHS831 said:

I guess I have been smoking experience and knowledge.  He was a RB/WR hybrid in college, so he admitted himself that route running was an area he was working on---are you seriously saying that his routes need no work because they "nice and natural?"  What the hell does that even mean?  

He had (like many rookies) problems getting out of the jam and not tipping off his cuts.  He gets good separation out of the break and he is quick--which is what you see.  Sure, he was nice and natural,  but the little things that separate the Jerry Rices  from the Dwayne Jarretts are in the subtle details.

What rookie wouldn't say he could improve? And based on what we've seen how can you say his route running will be a presumable weakness in the future? It doesn't look like he'll have any problems, yet, that remains to be seen, but i certainly wouldn't list his route running as a weakness, more of a question mark. Based on what we've seen, he looks like its not going to be a problem..in my opinion of course.

[Moose Hoover]

2 minutes ago, RealisticPanther said:

What rookie wouldn't say he could improve?

I'm not sure Kamara could improve that much more...

[MHS831]

2 minutes ago, CRA said:

I’m not giving up on him.  He wasn’t a vertical threat in college and IMO he wasn’t drafted to be that for us.   I think he was drafted to be a Swiss Army knife to work out of the slot and backfield.  I have high hopes for him. 

We need someone to take the top off a D

He is very raw for a 40th overall (estimated) pick.  He was not drafted to be that for us, but without Shula...My point was to look at his skill  set and see why he cannot be a deep threat and possibly change his role. And we have Byrd who did run some deep routes at SC.  I am expecting a 50-catch season from Samuel next year, (fingers crossed).  His Miami game was (essentially) was the equivalent of the first game after pre season  for him. He had 5 catches....maybe, just maybe.

[SCO96]

2 hours ago, DaveThePanther2008 said:

The issue with most of you guys on this forum is if someone gets hurt or doesn't have that Madden numbers their rookie year you are ready to write them off and move on.  

Everyone is so ready to grab a player in the draft when we have the talent already.  IMO we waste a draft pick because so many of you are ready to jettison a good player.

We need to focus on drafting positions of REAL need.  Safety, DE, LT just to name a few.

I agree with signing a vet to improve our WR Corps but I am not one to want to waste a pick on a first round WR when we have players that are as good or even better than the talent you want to add. 

Let's focus on drafting players that can fill a real void instead of drafting another player of the same or similiar caliber just because our former rookie got hurt last year.

 

I agree with your positions of need, although I think you would agree that Center (Ryan's retiring), CB (not a position of strength in a pass oriented league), and HB (Stewart is in the last year of his deal) need to be addressed as well. All of the above are more urgent needs than WR. Getting rid of Shula and bringing an experienced play caller like Norv Turner in and of itself will automatically improve our passing game as well as the return of a healthy Greg Olsen.

Byrd and Samuel should both improve with another year under their belts IF they can stay healthy. I wouldn't risk drafting a receiver in the 1st round with all of our needs unless a stud like AJ Green or Julio Jones fell in our laps. Both of those guys came into the league and produced from Day 1. I'd try to bring in a proven veteran like you suggested in your post and fill in the other need areas. 

[tondi]

Focusing on 40 times in no way captures the vast difference in game speed between Ginn and just about everybody else not named Deion Sanders. These young guys ran great 40s but who cares if they look like every other 4.5 guy in pads. 

[MHS831]

4 minutes ago, RealisticPanther said:

What rookie wouldn't say he could improve? And based on what we've seen how can you say his route running will be a presumable weakness in the future? It doesn't look like he'll have any problems, yet, that remains to be seen, but i certainly wouldn't list his route running as a weakness, more of a question mark. Based on what we've seen, he looks like its not going to be a problem..in my opinion of course.

Jerry Rice said running routes is an ongoing process of improvement that is never finished. I  did not say he would have route-running weaknesses in the future, I said he needs to improve them now.    Below is an example of a fairly common perception. 

Bottom Line (when he was drafted-NFL.com--first site I checked to find some info to help you understand my point)

Jack-of-all trades but master of none, Samuel showed an ability to gain yardage and create scoring opportunities in a variety of ways on a talented Buckeyes offense. However, NFL teams will want to slot him into a more defined role, which is most likely at receiver. He is still learning the position and has separation quickness to create open throwing lanes, but while he's sharpening his route work, he could find early reps as a kick returner.

[MHS831]

2 minutes ago, tondi said:

Focusing on 40 times in no way captures the vast difference in game speed between Ginn and just about everybody else not named Deion Sanders. These young guys ran great 40s but who cares if they look like every other 4.5 guy in pads. 

The speed and body types were compared.  Speed was not the focus.  The separation out of cuts was.  He also had a very good 3-cone time and vertical.

[CRA]

23 minutes ago, MHS831 said:

He is very raw for a 40th overall (estimated) pick.  He was not drafted to be that for us, but without Shula...My point was to look at his skill  set and see why he cannot be a deep threat and possibly change his role. And we have Byrd who did run some deep routes at SC.  I am expecting a 50-catch season from Samuel next year, (fingers crossed).  His Miami game was (essentially) was the equivalent of the first game after pre season  for him. He had 5 catches....maybe, just maybe.

What was he drafted to be if not a slot and backfield threat? I mean that is what he has proven he can do well.   Heck when he was drafted the talk was how curious it was because we just spent a first rounder on a guy who filled the role. 

Could he develop into more? Possibly. 

We needed a legit vertical threat this past year and now need one this year.  That still ain’t Samuel.  Even if he develops, nothing suggests he can be THAT as quick as we need it. 

[SOJA]

41 minutes ago, MHS831 said:

Yes.  And he does not need to be a deep threat if Byrd and Samuel can get deep effectively.  The basic point of the thread.

 

yep I agree with your OP

[pantherclaw]

Good luck on finding and getting a "stallion."

[SCO96]

16 minutes ago, tondi said:

Focusing on 40 times in no way captures the vast difference in game speed between Ginn and just about everybody else not named Deion Sanders. These young guys ran great 40s but who cares if they look like every other 4.5 guy in pads. 

Years ago I read an article about Terrell Davis back in the late 90's. Rod Smith was commenting on TD's 40 time. The interviewer asked him where would TD finish in a team race. He said something to the effect of "Near the back of the pack". But he added on game day "he's probably the fastest guy on our team".

I've talked to several former football players and most will say that 40 time and actual game speed are totally different, something my pea brain has never fully comprehended.

 

[Darvinsun]

I saw enough of Byrd to say he is a keeper and so is Samuels. Both were injured so really it is up to our Strength and Conditioning group to get these guys stronger. Most of our receivers were hurt all season not one was healthy all yr long? So the question should be is it our scout team, strength and conditioning team or both.  From what I see if all guys can stay healthy and we add a good possession vet we are good on the wr end. 

[Mojo]

Byrd has the potential to be a fantastic player.  I just think he needs to stay healthy and get more opportunities.  Samuel as well.  Ginn is obviously blazing fast but I think one thing that also helped him was his rapport with Cam.  If these guys can get in sync with Cam with more reps I think they'll both do well in the offense.

I still say bring in a vet and draft a guy though.  We need to look at drafting a TE as well.  

 

[Manther]

5 hours ago, MHS831 said:

Just an observation, but I hear us talking about getting a deep threat WR, like we had in Ted Ginn.  We drafted a player like Ginn. 

We have Ted Ginn 2.0, don't we?  Curtis Samuel.  I don't think he was being used the same way, when he was healthy.  I realize some of you are going to refer to his injuries, etc., but one season does not mean squat.

• College:  Both-Ohio State
• Combine 40 time:  Ginn 4.28; Samuel 4.31
• Height:  Both 5' 11"
• Weight:  Ginn 180; Samuel 195
• Strengths:  Athleticism, speed
• Weaknesses:  Route running, hands
• Draft: Ginn 1st round; Samuel 2nd round

The difference?  At Ohio State, Samuel was listed as a running back because "Swiss army knife"  is not a position.  So Samuel, despite the injuries, had a challenging transition from college to NFL.  He is also a bit raw, needing time to develop his hands and route running...Ginn has struggled with those 2 things his entire career.  Ginn was never more than a #4 WR before coming to Charlotte, so give Samuel some time. 

Having said that, we need 2 WRs that can get deep, not one--that keeps the safeties honest or requires a CB to run with 4.3 speed. So I think Samuel in the slot, Funchess as the #2 WR, and a stallion as the #1 WR is the design.  

Damiere Byrd: Yes, I know we think he is fragile, and he might be, but as for his speed, Byrd ran a 4.27 at his pro day.  He has pretty good hands and has been developing his skills as a WR.

So, my question is (and it is a sincere question): Can these 2 WRs become deep threats?  If so, do we need another speed WR?  Is the need to simply continue developing Samuel and Byrd?  

I am interested to learn what the response here is because it has a lot to do with my mock drafting, so it is urgent.

(Full disclosure:  I am of the mindset that we need another stud TE and the WR we draft should be a player with solid hands, excellent route running skills, and the ability to get separation out of cuts.)

I really am concerned about Samuel's hands.  Byrd is faster and has shown he can make some amazing catches.   I'd push Samuel down the list until he has shown he's reliable.   I agree that  we need to bring in a vet here.