What's Hurney thinking about? A few general answers

[Mr. Scot]

4 minutes ago, top dawg said:

Look at it this way.  Hurney will likely be a little skittish to overpay and make terrible financial decisions because of how things last ended.  He already said in so many words that he's going to be more thoughtful about team building as it pertains to economics, and putting too many eggs in one positional basket. If anything he is going to be overly cautious.  That being said,  the only real "damage" that he can do is in the draft.  Let's say he hits on a first rounder (which is likely considering his past)  and screws up royally on everything else. Let's assume that because he screws up,  we end up tanking in 2018. In 2019, we will have a new GM with a "lottery" pick,  as well as a full compliment of picks including as much as three third rounders. That's probably about as bad as it would be in all likelihood.  Sure, we lose a season, but what else is new (except the future with new ownership and management)?  

I just don't see why some are being so nauseatingly negative about the situation.  Change is on the horizon either way.  If Marty sucks,  he sucks.  If he's good,  then it's all good.  Either way, positive change is coming. 

Again, the choice is not between old Marty and new Marty.

The choice is between Marty and three superior candidates.

You've given zero evidence that Marty is a better choice than any of the others short of some "anything can happen" type speculation.

Talk all you want about his financial choices. There is nothing whatsoever to suggest he's a better talent evaluator then people who have had success in that field. And being able to evaluate talent is the primary job of a GM.

Giving Marty the job over the other choices would be one of the stupidest decisions this team ever made (and there's a lot of competition for that).

[panthers55]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

I have no dislike for Hurney at all. I actually think he's a good guy.

I also think he's a completely incompetent GM.

Believe it or not, it is possible to separate personal and professional opinions.

I agree about the separation. Problem is you haven't and don't. Otherwise you wouldn't use extreme characterizations as totally incompetent. That is an emotional opinion not a logical one based on facts. He has done some good things since he has been back. Your failure to acknowledge that makes your opinion biased and by definition personal not impartial.

[Mr. Scot]

3 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

Exactly. This is sky is falling logic from folks who hate Hurney and refuse to believe he could change or did. It is likely a waste of time trying to change minds of folks who have already made them up and aren't changing no matter what.

I repeat what I said in the beginning. I don't really care whether his attitude has changed or not. Unless he somehow gained 20 years plus of successful talent evaluation experience in the past year, he's not as good a candidate as the others.

The Panthers are the only team dumb enough to put him in charge of anything.  Nobody else would even look at him. But the Panthers, yeah...

They've already done it twice. Doing it a third time is inexcusable.

[top dawg]

25 minutes ago, Jon Snow said:

What good has he done since being back?  Trading KB?  That was beyond stupid.  Holding onto 2 kickers? Dumb.  Letting the wrong kicker go?  Dumb.  Nothing he has done since returning has made this team better.

I like the fact that he traded KB.  What made it seem "beyond stupid" are injuries to Samuel and Byrd.  Our offense improved without KB.  My only issue with that trade was a third rounder as opposed to a second round pick as compensation.  But,  hindsight has even proved that they third rounder might have been utterly fair. 

So he held on to two kickers. Big fuging deal!  Why is this even an issue anymore?  It was never a big issue to begin with.  We ultimately ended up with our penalty machine FB, and Gano was the best kicker in the game.  Kickers come a dime a dozen.  If you look hard enough---not even hard---you can find the next Butker with relative ease.  

Marty didn't do anything earth shattering,  but he has made some decidedly smart and thoughtful moves since his return. 

[Mr. Scot]

1 minute ago, panthers55 said:

I agree about the separation. Problem is you haven't and don't. Otherwise you wouldn't use extreme characterizations as totally incompetent. That is an emotional opinion not a logical one based on facts. He has done some good things since he has been back. Your failure to acknowledge that makes your opinion biased and by definition personal not impartial.

A three out of eleven success rate is a fact.

No experience as a scout or a personnel guy other than being the Panthers GM is a fact.

His stepping into a situation where free agency in the draft had already been taken care of is a fact.

"Maybe he's changed" is not.

[panthers55]

Just now, Mr. Scot said:

I repeat what I said in the beginning. I don't really care whether his attitude has changed or not. Unless he somehow gained 20 years plus of successful talent evaluation experience in the past year, he's not as good a candidate as the others.

The Panthers are the only team dumb enough to put him in charge of anything.  Nobody else would even look at him. But the Panthers, yeah...

They've already done it twice. Doing it a third time is inexcusable.

Again you don't have to be a scout as a GM or a cap specialist, or former football player or anything but a manager of people and personnel. He isn't doing this in a vacuum. Hire good people and let them do their job. What you value in a GM doesn't.make it a job requirement. Gettleman had that background but he missed on lots of folks.

[top dawg]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Again, the choice is not between old Marty and new Marty.

The choice is between Marty and three superior candidates.

You've given zero evidence that Marty is a better choice than any of the others short of some "anything can happen" type speculation.

Talk all you want about his financial choices. There is nothing whatsoever to suggest he's a better talent evaluator then people who have had success in that field. And being able to evaluate talent is the primary job of a GM.

Giving Marty the job over the other choices would be one of the stupidest decisions this team ever made (and there's a lot of competition for that).

Your lips keep proclaiming them as the superior choice but haven't really provided anything concrete but lip service.  You know why?  Because a lot of this stuff is subjective as hell.  

Look,  I'm not gonna cry either way.  I'm generally a proponent of starting fresh and anew when things are clearly not working, but I can't say that yet.  

Just like you were premature in your assessment of Ron Rivera being a bad coach,  you are jumping the gun a little now. 

[SCO96]

3 hours ago, Cracka McNasty said:

In business, yes, I can understand that, but this is football business and Hurney is severely lacking in one certain aspect of being a good GM: Scouting.

The dude is by all accounts a nice guy, and very smart. The further from 2010 we get, the more I really feel like that whole mess was JR's call to re-sign those nice young men, even though a few of them sucked. 

But where Hurney really falls short is the evaluation of talent. I'm not just talking about the draft, He has a great track record in the 1st round, I won't argue that, but 2nd and 3rd, he's really sub-par at talent evaluation, and with pro scouting he was down right abysmal. That's where Gettleman outclassed him - pro scouting and evaluating. We all know that Kalil sucks, but there were 5 or 6 other diamonds in the rough that he unearthed at a discount for short term rentals that certainly panned out in our favor. Hell, we wouldn't have had to get Kalil had Oher's brain been scrambled because he looked like the long term solution to our LT problems before that. 

So honestly, I do feel like Hurney can and probably has learned from the past where he blew all our money on an outdated position on aging vets who didn't deserve it. I feel he'll be more hesitant to blow his wad this time around. But I don't trust him to evaluate which of those guys to keep, and in turn, which players to sign as FA's to replace those who leave. 

I've been busy working this morning so I'm just joining this topic.  I agree with what you said about the talent evaluation. We missed on way too many draft choices during the latter portion of his time as GM.

These questions are addressed to anyone who is knowledgeable about this aspect of the team. Just how is our scouting department organized these days?

1) How many do we have?

2) Are any still here from Hurney's first tenure as GM?

3) Do we have scouts assigned to specific NCAA conferences, areas of the country, or smaller schools?

Teams like the Steelers and Pats constantly draft in the lower 20's each year. At season's end they always seem to be in contention for playoff spots and conference titles. Their scouting departments are always finding guys like Antonio Brown, Tom Brady, Malcom Butler, etc after the 3rd round. If you're going to be good every year you have to hit on most of those late round picks or be a shrewd dealmaker in free agency. As of yet, Hurney hasn't proven to be great at either.

[juliosantos]

at least hurney is addressing the needs 

[panthers55]

8 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

A three out of eleven success rate is a fact.

No experience as a scout or a personnel guy other than being the Panthers GM is a fact.

His stepping into a situation where free agency in the draft had already been taken care of is a fact.

"Maybe he's changed" is not.

The fact he dumped Benjamin and our offense improved and we got 2 more picks is a fact. Giving Olsen an incentive based contract which made him happy and saved us million when he got hurt was a fact. Signing Davis to a new contract and he made the probowl is a fact. Trading for Seymour and getting Clay back for free helped the team and cost us nothing. That is a fact.

What you pointed out he did five years ago is irrelevant. Thinking he didn't make some good moves is your opinion and in my opinion is wrong. But honestly I will pick this up later. I have work to do and can't live on here like you apparently can.

[top dawg]

5 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

The fact he dumped Benjamin and our offense improved and we got 2 more picks is a fact. Giving Olsen an incentive based contract which made him happy and saved us million when he got hurt was a fact. Signing Davis to a new contract and he made the probowl is a fact. Trading for Seymour and getting Clay back for free helped the team and cost us nothing. That is a fact.

What you pointed out he did five years ago is irrelevant. Thinking he didn't make some good moves is your opinion and in my opinion is wrong. But honestly I will pick this up later. I have work to do and can't live on here like you apparently can.

Scot started throwing shade at Davis prematurely as well.  I don't necessarily mention things at the time,  but I see them.  He was talking down about Davis at the beginning of '16. But I knew Davis wasn't done.  

[Jon Snow]

Trading KB was not necessary to improve the offense and saying so is just plain ignorant.   That kicker he chose is up for a new contract and he will have to pay too much to keep him when he had his replacement on the team already on a cheap rookie contract.  He kept the wrong kicker.  Now he's going to have to pay.  Keep telling yourself that he's doing a good job.

[top dawg]

2 minutes ago, Jon Snow said:

Trading KB was not necessary to improve the offense and saying so is just plain ignorant.   That kicker he chose is up for a new contract and he will have to pay too much to keep him when he had his replacement on the team already on a cheap rookie contract.  He kept the wrong kicker.  Now he's going to have to pay.  Keep telling yourself that he's doing a good job.

I agree with you on how the KB thing was worded. It was awkward if not PC. That being said, what he should have said was that KB was not in our future plans and didn't mesh well with the vision that we have for our receiving corps.  He could have even mentioned "addition by subtraction," but that wouldn't  have been the most gracious way to talk about it. 

Again,  I'm not wasting time thinking about Butker.  Kickers come and go. I don't care about paying as long as it isn't overpaying. 

[Mr. Scot]

19 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

The fact he dumped Benjamin and our offense improved and we got 2 more picks is a fact. Giving Olsen an incentive based contract which made him happy and saved us million when he got hurt was a fact. Signing Davis to a new contract and he made the probowl is a fact. Trading for Seymour and getting Clay back for free helped the team and cost us nothing. That is a fact.

What you pointed out he did five years ago is irrelevant. Thinking he didn't make some good moves is your opinion and in my opinion is wrong. But honestly I will pick this up later. I have work to do and can't live on here like you apparently can.

See, this is the MO. In order to make Hurney look good, you have to look at isolated moves and ignore the big picture.

Basically, this is like saying Phil Savage was a good GM because he drafted Joe Thomas.