Vikings vs Carolina - How Norv Turner Helped Tailor Their 31-13 victory

[Saca312]

29 minutes ago, SixMileDrive said:

You won't find a single analyst that agrees with what you said here. The last time we ran EP as a base offense was with Fox and Jeff Davidson.

I guess I need to reword my verbiage.

I don’t think EP’s the base offense. I agree Coryell’s been the base. I just mean we never used Coryell terminology since Shula never grasped it nor really fully implemented that system as a whole.

I’m sure Shula based his terminology off of EP, and I know plenty of analysts who’d agree, including myself. Ran no-huddle quite a bit, and there’s no way any coryell verbiage would’ve gotten in.

As I said, I don’t really attach Shula’s system with anything, because I personally felt it was unique. College concepts commonly used. This past year was more EP than not with Coryell as base, but Shula never really was consistent with anything.

 

[SixMileDrive]

12 minutes ago, Snake said:

You might be a nerd and watch a bunch of all 22 film but I can disprove your argument with two words. "Even Janitor" . 

Sorry dude, thats not how things work. You can't just say Cam called an audible using these words and declare yourself the winner of an argument. I don't think anyone here is 12 anymore. I have an idea where you are going with this (and why it's totally off base) but I'm not going to make your argument for you.

[Saca312]

Here’s a good article explaining the variations in verbiage between Coryell, EP, and WCO.

http://grantland.com/features/how-terminology-erhardt-perkins-system-helped-maintain-dominance-tom-brady-patriots/

I’ll take Coryell for an example.

The Coryell system, named after former San Diego Chargers head coach Don Coryell and used by coaches such as Norv Turner, Ernie Zampese, and Mike Martz, is built around the concept of a route tree. Many teams use a route tree (which is the idea that the base route is straight up the field, and the other routes consist of break points off that original path), but the Coryell system uses the tree as the foundation of its play-calling system. For example, the Troy Aikman–era Dallas Cowboys frequently called a play called “896,” which told one outside receiver to run a square-in route (“6”), the tight end to run a seam straight up the field (“9”), and the split end to run a skinny post (“8”). The idea was that, using the route tree, a coach could effectively call any pass combination and all a receiver had to know was the number associated with his route.

In recent years, as offenses and defenses have grown more complex, these systems have started crumbling under their own weight. With multiple formations and personnel groupings, calls that began as “22 Z-In” have gotten unwieldy.

In the Coryell system, the elegance of the three-digit route-tree system has been rendered almost entirely obsolete. Because NFL teams operate predominantly in one-back formations, there are often more than three players running routes, and calling any pass play means having to use both numbers and words (“896 H-Shallow F-Curl”). More critically, the numerical route-tree system gives coaches and players flexibility where they don’t need it and not enough where they do. The “benefit” of a route-tree system is the ability to call any passing concept a coach could dream up, but that option is of very little use. Assuming the route tree has 10 routes (0-9), a three-digit tree gives an offense 59,049 different possible route combinations. That’s absurd. And yet, the route tree by definition only has 10 possible routes, much fewer than any NFL team actually runs. This means that any other route must be called by name, thus defeating the very purpose of having a route tree.

____

Simply put, it’s illogical to consider we ran pure Coryell all the time, considering we ran quite a bit of concepts and no doubt Coryell is far too much in the no huddle we implement a few times.

From my observations, 2017 was unique and really not confined to much of a system. I’d argue it’s closer to an EP and Coryell hybrid with EP used as terminology.

[Snake]

3 minutes ago, SixMileDrive said:

Sorry dude, thats not how things work. You can't just say Cam called an audible using these words and declare yourself the winner of an argument. I don't think anyone here is 12 anymore. I have an idea where you are going with this (and why it's totally off base) but I'm not going to make your argument for you.

Hahaha see this is why you don't understand. In the Coryell system it would be 896. Because you use a route tree. Our system even uses the concept of the EP. Run to win pass to score. 

[SixMileDrive]

5 minutes ago, Saca312 said:

Here’s a good article explaining the variations in verbiage between Coryell, EP, and WCO.

http://grantland.com/features/how-terminology-erhardt-perkins-system-helped-maintain-dominance-tom-brady-patriots/

I’ll take Coryell for an example.

The Coryell system, named after former San Diego Chargers head coach Don Coryell and used by coaches such as Norv Turner, Ernie Zampese, and Mike Martz, is built around the concept of a route tree. Many teams use a route tree (which is the idea that the base route is straight up the field, and the other routes consist of break points off that original path), but the Coryell system uses the tree as the foundation of its play-calling system. For example, the Troy Aikman–era Dallas Cowboys frequently called a play called “896,” which told one outside receiver to run a square-in route (“6”), the tight end to run a seam straight up the field (“9”), and the split end to run a skinny post (“8”). The idea was that, using the route tree, a coach could effectively call any pass combination and all a receiver had to know was the number associated with his route.

In recent years, as offenses and defenses have grown more complex, these systems have started crumbling under their own weight. With multiple formations and personnel groupings, calls that began as “22 Z-In” have gotten unwieldy.

In the Coryell system, the elegance of the three-digit route-tree system has been rendered almost entirely obsolete. Because NFL teams operate predominantly in one-back formations, there are often more than three players running routes, and calling any pass play means having to use both numbers and words (“896 H-Shallow F-Curl”). More critically, the numerical route-tree system gives coaches and players flexibility where they don’t need it and not enough where they do. The “benefit” of a route-tree system is the ability to call any passing concept a coach could dream up, but that option is of very little use. Assuming the route tree has 10 routes (0-9), a three-digit tree gives an offense 59,049 different possible route combinations. That’s absurd. And yet, the route tree by definition only has 10 possible routes, much fewer than any NFL team actually runs. This means that any other route must be called by name, thus defeating the very purpose of having a route tree.

____

Simply put, it’s illogical to consider we ran pure Coryell all the time, considering we ran quite a bit of concepts and no doubt Coryell is far too much in the no huddle we implement a few times.

Then again, I guess you could also argue the playcall takes forever to get in at times leading to wasted timeouts when we do run Coryell, but I’ll have to look deeper into that.

Here's Cam making example play calls. Funny that they sound exactly like the Coryell call in the article you linked. Weird. And yeah, we aren't (and have never been) 100% pure Coryell. No one is claiming that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn8kIt5wmog

[Snake]

5 minutes ago, Saca312 said:

Here’s a good article explaining the variations in verbiage between Coryell, EP, and WCO.

http://grantland.com/features/how-terminology-erhardt-perkins-system-helped-maintain-dominance-tom-brady-patriots/

I’ll take Coryell for an example.

The Coryell system, named after former San Diego Chargers head coach Don Coryell and used by coaches such as Norv Turner, Ernie Zampese, and Mike Martz, is built around the concept of a route tree. Many teams use a route tree (which is the idea that the base route is straight up the field, and the other routes consist of break points off that original path), but the Coryell system uses the tree as the foundation of its play-calling system. For example, the Troy Aikman–era Dallas Cowboys frequently called a play called “896,” which told one outside receiver to run a square-in route (“6”), the tight end to run a seam straight up the field (“9”), and the split end to run a skinny post (“8”). The idea was that, using the route tree, a coach could effectively call any pass combination and all a receiver had to know was the number associated with his route.

In recent years, as offenses and defenses have grown more complex, these systems have started crumbling under their own weight. With multiple formations and personnel groupings, calls that began as “22 Z-In” have gotten unwieldy.

In the Coryell system, the elegance of the three-digit route-tree system has been rendered almost entirely obsolete. Because NFL teams operate predominantly in one-back formations, there are often more than three players running routes, and calling any pass play means having to use both numbers and words (“896 H-Shallow F-Curl”). More critically, the numerical route-tree system gives coaches and players flexibility where they don’t need it and not enough where they do. The “benefit” of a route-tree system is the ability to call any passing concept a coach could dream up, but that option is of very little use. Assuming the route tree has 10 routes (0-9), a three-digit tree gives an offense 59,049 different possible route combinations. That’s absurd. And yet, the route tree by definition only has 10 possible routes, much fewer than any NFL team actually runs. This means that any other route must be called by name, thus defeating the very purpose of having a route tree.

____

Simply put, it’s illogical to consider we ran pure Coryell all the time, considering we ran quite a bit of concepts and no doubt Coryell is far too much in the no huddle we implement a few times.

From my observations, 2017 was unique and really not confined to much of a system. I’d argue it’s closer to an EP and Coryell hybrid with EP used as terminology.

Really plays cross multiple systems. I think most people just see what NE runs and say that's the EP. Well it's really not because it's the EP with WCO and spread plays mixed. Ours was Coryell, zone read, and a bit of spread with EP being the concept. Both are run to win pass to score offenses though. 

[SixMileDrive]

5 minutes ago, Snake said:

Hahaha see this is why you don't understand. In the Coryell system it would be 896. Because you use a route tree. Our system even uses the concept of the EP. Run to win pass to score. 

See, this is why I gave you the noose. You hung yourself.

1.) Cam was asked to make a play call a year ago on a TV appearance. Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn8kIt5wmog. What's the call? It's Coryell. 631 Smash. Oops.

2.) Even Janitor: Cam literally had to convince a teammate that it was a real call on the field because this type of thing was so out of left field.

[Mr. Scot]

You kids and your interwebs...

Read a book, dang it!

[GoobyPls]

Vikings offense barely did squat that game. I remember it was below zero at the Gophers stadium and our offense also struggled 

[SixMileDrive]

1 minute ago, GoobyPls said:

Vikings offense barely did squat that game. I remember it was below zero at the Gophers stadium and our offense also struggled 

Were you there? I got AMAZING tickets for like $7 each. Put a ton of layers on and it was completely unbearable. My beer became a slushi and the vendors at the stadium ran out of hand warmers. Hate leaving games early but I didn't make it past the 3rd quarter.

[Snake]

28 minutes ago, SixMileDrive said:

See, this is why I gave you the noose. You hung yourself.

1.) Cam was asked to make a play call a year ago on a TV appearance. Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn8kIt5wmog. What's the call? It's Coryell. 631 Smash. Oops.

2.) Even Janitor: Cam literally had to convince a teammate that it was a real call on the field because this type of thing was so out of left field.

What does that prove lol. Let's forget our multiple uses of trapping and pulling guards, let's forget the the terminology like Even Janitor, Omaha, or Dilly Dilly  

The EP uses those terms. Like zero Ride thirty six. You obviously have no clue what the EP is so just stop trying. It can be used in combination with the Coryell like in Pittsburgh. Or it can be used in combination of the WCO like in NE. It's concepts are the same though. Just admit you're wrong and move on. 

 

[SixMileDrive]

Just now, Snake said:

What does that prove lol. Let forget our multiple uses of trapping and pulling guards, let's forget the the terminology like Even Janitor, Omaha, or Dilly Dilly  

The EP uses those terms. Like zero Ride thirty six. You obviously have no clue what the EP is so just stop trying. It can be used in combination with the Coryell like in Pittsburgh. Or it can be used in combination of the WCO like in NE. It's concepts are the same though. Just admit you're wrong and move on. 

 

You keep losing so you move the goal posts again and again. I know exactly what EP is and I know exactly what Coryell is. Give it up. We've been Coryell since day 1 of Rivera's tenure. Yeah it's a hybrid system with aspects of other systems. But at the end of the day it's always been Coryell.

It's okay to admit you are wrong from time to time. It doesn't make you less of a man.

[Snake]

8 minutes ago, SixMileDrive said:

You keep losing so you move the goal posts again and again. I know exactly what EP is and I know exactly what Coryell is. Give it up. We've been Coryell since day 1 of Rivera's tenure. Yeah it's a hybrid system with aspects of other systems. But at the end of the day it's always been Coryell.

It's okay to admit you are wrong from time to time. It doesn't make you less of a man.

The EP isn't a system genius it's a concept. Just like the play Cam calls out. The Alert Alert is the EP part of it. It tells the offense if Cam calls alert he is going to do a QB sneak. Like I said you have no idea what you're talking about. Just give up and shut up lol. 

[SixMileDrive]

Just now, Snake said:

The EP isn't a system genius it's a concept. Just like the play Cam calls out. The Alert Alert is the EP part of it. It tells the offense if Cam calls alert he is going to do a QB sneak. Like I said you have no idea what you're talking about. Just give up and shut up lol. 

Sigh.