The Norv Turner Experience - Cam Newton's Deathbed

[top dawg]

11 hours ago, lightsout said:

OP ignores several things, mainly that Norv lost a lot of pieces from his SD team, hence why that went south as well as how much animosity existed with the Vikings as an organization in his time there. 

Norv Turner is about 3 simple things.

- Run the damn ball
- Get your TE the damn ball
- Chip away underneath and then break the damn D's back on a double move deep

That's what this team is best at. That's the identity that this team has deep down. It's what got us to a Super Bowl a couple of years ago and it's what got us to 3 straight NFC South titles. When we've struggled, one of those three facets was missing in such a way that the other two suffered. If Olsen isn't getting the ball, the run game isn't gonna open up as much because they'll stack the box. If the run game isn't effective, you can't run deep routes, let alone double moves because the pass rush will be more aggressive. If you can't hit the short throws, you don't draw coverage down and therefore open the deep throws more.

Shula did his best to emulate Gus Malzahn (seriously, all the fake jet when we ran actual jet sweep like, twice all year) and Norv Turner in a hybrid of those two systems. While admirable and creative in theory, he did not execute it and worst of all, he simply doesn't understand timing in his playcalls. His lack of a gameplan each week lead to uncertainty on what to call play to play as the game unfolded in front of him and this lead to getting plays in late which lead to delay of game penalties, burning timeouts, or Cam not having time to adjust to the defense pre-snap. Shula can design a mean play, but he doesn't understand when to call that play more often than not.

Norv Turner would come in and instantly get this offense to at the very least take pride in themselves. Mike Shula never seemed like the "do it right or GTFO" type of coach, and that's the sort of mentality you have to have when you have a guy like Cam Newton. He doesn't need laid back, cool coach Shula. He needs somebody to challenge him.

And I'm going to add that there will be a marked difference in talent. 

Ignoring injuries and the level of talent and how that negatively effects execution in any type of analysis kinda screams ulterior motives and a lack of complete understanding. 

[therealmjl]

16 minutes ago, top dawg said:

And I'm going to add that there will be a marked difference in talent. 

Ignoring injuries and the level of talent and how that negatively effects execution in any type of analysis kinda screams ulterior motives and a lack of complete understanding. 

Exactly.

Even if you simply swapped the quarterbck position, Cam Newton is in a different stratosphere than Teddy and Bradford

[CRA]

13 hours ago, Saca312 said:

They say change is a good thing. A breath of fresh air. A new morning.

So, when Ron Rivera fired Shula, many thought that change may finally be here. 

However, with recent events unfolding, that definitely is no longer the case.

Ron Rivera wants to play football like his days back during the '85 Bears. He wants a rough defense and an offense who's only sole existence is to attempt to control the ball and not be flash or bang. This is all despite having one of the most electrifying quarterbacks in Cam Newton, new generation type players in Christian McCaffrey and Curtis Samuel, and an offense which definitely has the potential to be explosive with the right guy.

So, hiring Norv Turner would be the epitome of Rivera's pathetic ability of self-scouting and improving this team.

Turner comes from an era that is no more. His offensive designs lack creativity or ingenuity. He draws up designs from the '90s that clearly don't work in the modern NFL, and he pretty much is terrible at everything he does. 

Take a look at his past history, and you'll see why.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/TurnNo0.htm

The true definition of mediocrity. In fact, during his tenure with the 2011 Chargers, it's been noted he has been by far and wide the weakest link of the bunch. Take a look at what @rayzor dug up.

 

Sound familiar? Get used to this.

The Chargers overcame poor coaching with talent. Having the likes of Phillip Rivers, Vincent Jackson, Malcolm Floyd, Antonio Gates, and a top tier offensive line at their peak allowed this team to flourish.

Turner's archaic designs stress the importance of having elite tackles and long, developing plays. His style may have worked in the '90s when defenses didn't have as many pass rushing nor athletic freaks as the league does today, but obviously that won't work now. He is simply uncreative and terrible at being an offensive coordinator.

In simpler terms, he lives off of long developing plays with very poor blocking schemes to compensate. Basically an older version of Shula.

Billy has done the hard work and pretty much dug up a bunch of these on twitter and showed exactly why he's bad. I'll highlight a few of them down below, but there's a bunch more where this came from here.

https://twitter.com/BillyM_91/status/950874829783171073

You have a 3x1 here with a dig, drag, and a post. All these are long and developing routes and require the offensive line to hold for a long time. Basically even more ancient than Shula's old scheme.

This requires elite OTs to even stand a chance. The amount of time the QB is forced to hold the ball is crazy. This is like 2016's offense all over again.

And of course, the guy giving up the fumble is Matt Kalil.

As for the next one, you have two posts on the wins side with a drag from the TE and a deep hitch mixed in. Long developing plays yet again, but what gets worse is how the offensive line is schemed to block.

I don't even know what kind of protection is this. Pathetic scheming all around.

Even @Jeremy Igo recognizes a coaching issue when it comes to the offensive line play. Scroll down towards the middle post and you'll see his take;

http://www.carolinahuddle.com/boards/topic/139210-quick-analysis-matt-kalils-film-is-depressing-but-steps-hes-taking-in-the-off-season-provides-hope/

Simply put, Norv Turner likes getting his quarterback killed.

Finally, he certainly knows how to not get anyone open. This is terrible.

Since Norv Turner hates seeing people go off script and rips at them for such, I don't even know if Cam can save this atrocity. Turner is a huge downgrade from Shula in this day and age of the NFL, and that's just how Rivera likes it.

Good luck.

Chud comes in here and rips off Norv....and people are like wow, Chud is so creative!!!

Norv comes in bringing what Chud copied and you are like Norv is too old school.  Literally every "cool" play from the Chud era was 100% ripped off from Norv.  The passes to Cam, the Little Giants play, all that crap.  Also, LT2 wasn't an 1980 2 yard and a cloud of dust boring RB.  Norv understands dynamic RBs.  

It is a good hire.   Norv + talent = good offense.   

[Kevin Greene]

Great stuff in here.

Norv brings a direct link to Don Coryell and Ernie Zampese. 2 of the greatest. Moreover this is someone Rivera trusts, gameday play calling will be night and day. Stupid is gone. Cam will dominate. That is all.

[maddog1945]

13 hours ago, JARROD said:

You guys are depressing me to death. 

Mans there’s no Jerry to step in and say “the air has been sucked out” and fire everyone like he did Seifart

Dang!  I agree! 

Let's just say the glass is half full!!!

I need my meds after reading all this!!!!

[grimesgoat]

1 hour ago, tiger7_88 said:

I honestly don't understand Ron's obsession with "ball control offense".

Yes, its axiomatic that its always better to have the ball than to NOT have the ball, but if you're just "controlling" the ball and not pushing it across the fugging goal-line, you've accomplished nothing.

Prioritize SCORING.

Prioritize being UNPREDICTABLE.

Prioritize the system to your PLAYERS and not your players to your SYSTEM (i.e. let Cam play no-huddle goddammit).

If controlling the clock can be accomplished with doing the above, then GREAT!  AWESOME!  But controlling the clock should be #4 (or lower) on the damn list.  I've repeated until I've gone blue in the face, you don't win because you have more minutes and seconds on your TOP than the other guy.  If you hold the ball for 39 minutes and your opponent for only 21, but he's scoring TDs every 3 minutes and all you're doing is kicking FGs on 7 minutes drives or going 3-and-out, TOP did jack poo for ya and you're getting blown out of the stadium.

I think Ron understands the team that scores the most wins.  He just believes the way to get there is to control the ball/clock.  I don't have the stats in front of me, but I've got to believe the probability of winning is higher for teams that control the ball/clock.  Gotta finish drives though as you said.

Being unpredictable is always helpful.  But imposing your will and ramming it down someone's throat (even when they know its coming) can also be fulfilling.

I'm not sure I get the last point about the "system".  I think it is clear we modified our offense to emphasize Cam's unique skill set.  Cam is an incredibly large and talented runner.  The read option and some of the other QB runs were added to the offense to exploit this.  You do not see the same types of plays run by the Giants for Eli or by the Saints for Brees for obvious reasons.  The read option runs are often quite successful, but you have to have the right person(el).  I think that qualifies as "prioritizing the system to your players". 

[JARROD]

13 hours ago, sanjay_rajput said:

Didn’t he say that Shepard would be our savior at WR position.

You said Stewart would sit versus the Saints and CAP would run 100 yards.

CAP wasn’t active even, as I said. 

[LegioX]

At this point I just want to see something different than a Shula run offense.

[top dawg]

13 hours ago, sanjay_rajput said:

Didn’t he say that Shepard would be our savior at WR position.

And he told us how Jamison Crowder is better than Jarvis Landry. 

It wouldn't be so bad if he was more democratic about his opinions,  but he doubles down with unparalleled authority which I guess adds flavor to the pie that ends up in his face! 

Yeah,  @Saca312, I'm still smarting over your disrespectful nature towards me when I was trying to get you tone down about Shepard and being unappreciative of Landry's skills in the slot.  

[unicar15]

Honestly with comments like this and not understanding that there is a problem with the offensive philosophy Ron is asking the new owner for skepticism not optimism. 

28th in passing offense

31st in rushing offense (taking Cam out of the numbers)

19th in total offense

11th in points per game with a defense giving the O better field position than most teams in the league. We were 1st in 2015 and have plummeted.

Those are profoundly damning numbers to  say to a new owner...”the system is in place and all I need is this dinosaur of an OC to make it work.” If this doesn’t translate into playoff wins and a much improved offense then Ron will be poo canned by the new owner.

[thefuzz]

2 hours ago, tiger7_88 said:

I honestly don't understand Ron's obsession with "ball control offense".

Yes, its axiomatic that its always better to have the ball than to NOT have the ball, but if you're just "controlling" the ball and not pushing it across the fugging goal-line, you've accomplished nothing.

Prioritize SCORING.

Prioritize being UNPREDICTABLE.

Prioritize the system to your PLAYERS and not your players to your SYSTEM (i.e. let Cam play no-huddle goddammit).

If controlling the clock can be accomplished with doing the above, then GREAT!  AWESOME!  But controlling the clock should be #4 (or lower) on the damn list.  I've repeated until I've gone blue in the face, you don't win because you have more minutes and seconds on your TOP than the other guy.  If you hold the ball for 39 minutes and your opponent for only 21, but he's scoring TDs every 3 minutes and all you're doing is kicking FGs on 7 minutes drives or going 3-and-out, TOP did jack poo for ya and you're getting blown out of the stadium.

It's not very smart in this day and age, but we have a defensive minded head coach, and until he is gone, we are stuck with this mentality.

[*FreeFua*]

13 hours ago, lightsout said:

OP ignores several things, mainly that Norv lost a lot of pieces from his SD team, hence why that went south as well as how much animosity existed with the Vikings as an organization in his time there. 

Norv Turner is about 3 simple things.

- Run the damn ball
- Get your TE the damn ball
- Chip away underneath and then break the damn D's back on a double move deep

That's what this team is best at. That's the identity that this team has deep down. It's what got us to a Super Bowl a couple of years ago and it's what got us to 3 straight NFC South titles. When we've struggled, one of those three facets was missing in such a way that the other two suffered. If Olsen isn't getting the ball, the run game isn't gonna open up as much because they'll stack the box. If the run game isn't effective, you can't run deep routes, let alone double moves because the pass rush will be more aggressive. If you can't hit the short throws, you don't draw coverage down and therefore open the deep throws more.

Shula did his best to emulate Gus Malzahn (seriously, all the fake jet when we ran actual jet sweep like, twice all year) and Norv Turner in a hybrid of those two systems. While admirable and creative in theory, he did not execute it and worst of all, he simply doesn't understand timing in his playcalls. His lack of a gameplan each week lead to uncertainty on what to call play to play as the game unfolded in front of him and this lead to getting plays in late which lead to delay of game penalties, burning timeouts, or Cam not having time to adjust to the defense pre-snap. Shula can design a mean play, but he doesn't understand when to call that play more often than not.

Norv Turner would come in and instantly get this offense to at the very least take pride in themselves. Mike Shula never seemed like the "do it right or GTFO" type of coach, and that's the sort of mentality you have to have when you have a guy like Cam Newton. He doesn't need laid back, cool coach Shula. He needs somebody to challenge him.

Which FA WR do you think would help the most knowing Norv’s system?

[therealmjl]

1 minute ago, *FreeFua* said:

Which FA WR do you think would help the most knowing Norv’s system?

Josh Gordon

hehe

[*FreeFua*]

Just now, mjligon said:

Josh Gordon

hehe

I would cry out of happiness