Seems like common sense to me, but why don't QB's go short to long on their reads?

[PrimeTimeHeel]

57 minutes ago, Saca312 said:

Lol since when the heck has that ever been the case.

So much bad in this I don't know where to start.

Have a go at it. Start anywhere. I will retort anything you say and if I cant I will congratulate you and accept I was wrong. 

[PrimeTimeHeel]

45 minutes ago, TheRed said:

Cam isn't the issue.

I'm really trying to be nice about this, but sometimes I wonder if any of you actually process what you're watching, if you're actually watching at all.

We can't run the ball for poo. Our offense runs through Cam Newton. We desperately need playmakers to step up. On top of the running game woes, our WR's have a consistent tendency to have trouble getting separation. Even more on top of all that we lack a deep threat. We sorely miss Ted Ginn. We're reduced to sending Devin Funchess downfield who just isn't a fit for that role, it's not his strength. Predictably those plays end up failing.

We're also seriously already force feeding CMC as it is. If you're solution is to force feed him even more to rack up 800 total yards like Ted Ginn did for us in 2015, the problem is, it's going to be on twice as many touches as Ginn had. We could have just re-signed Ginn and used the 8th overall pick elsewhere in an area of need if that is the case, like TE.

Cam is absolutely part of the issue. Everyone (minus D coaching and players) has some blame is our O being poo. 

The design and timing of our runs is crap. You wont be successful running everytime on 1st down against 8 or more man boxes. Also, all the long developing handoffs and pulling guards is also not doing us any favors. 

Our WRs are able to get seperation. On half the plays someone was open, Cam just simply locks on to one player and tries to force it. On the other half of the plays Shula sends everyone on fly routes deep. Hard to get seperation on those type plays. We need more consistency with play calls and design as well as Cam doing a better job of finding the open man. 

Cam is not without fault in this. It goes all around. 

[TheRed]

Just now, PrimeTimeHeel said:

Cam is absolutely part of the issue. Everyone (minus D coaching and players) has some blame is our O being poo. 

The design and timing of our runs is crap. You wont be successful running everytime on 1st down against 8 or more man boxes. Also, all the long developing handoffs and pulling guards is also not doing us any favors. 

Our WRs are able to get seperation. On half the plays someone was open, Cam just simply locks on to one player and tries to force it. On the other half of the plays Shula sends everyone on fly routes deep. Hard to get seperation on those type plays. We need more consistency with play calls and design as well as Cam doing a better job of finding the open man. 

Cam is not without fault in this. It goes all around. 

I didn't say he wasn't without his faults. I said in the context of this discussion, Cam isn't the issue that is ultimately holding the offense back. He's literally carrying it. We know we can win with him. We must simplify things, and get back to doing what we do best. Unfortunately in order to do that, we need a deep threat, and we also need to be able to sustain some semblance of a run game outside of Cam Newton.

We are not going to sustain success just dinking and dunking and force feeding CMC into oblivion because it works on madden.

[PrimeTimeHeel]

4 minutes ago, TheRed said:

I didn't say he wasn't without his faults. I said in the context of this discussion, Cam isn't the issue that is ultimately holding the offense back. He's literally carrying it. We know we can win with him. We must simplify things, and get back to doing what we do best. Unfortunately in order to do that, we need a deep threat, and we also need to be able to sustain some semblance of a run game outside of Cam Newton.

We are not going to sustain success just dinking and dunking and force feeding CMC into oblivion because it works on madden.

I place 80% of the blame on Shula. Maybe more at it is his job to teach and develop Cam. 

We have a deep threat in Samuel. We just don't use him. Byrd is also fast as fug, even faster I believe. 

Also, it is not a pleasant feeling allowing a jump ball way down field one on one with a guy like KB for your typical DB. Teams will usually play a S or two back. As you don't want to fug up and give away a free TD on a mishap from one defender. 

Can you explain why exactly we can not sustain success dinking and dunking assuming the D it to us?

[TheRed]

1 minute ago, PrimeTimeHeel said:

I place 80% of the blame on Shula. Maybe more at it is his job to teach and develop Cam. 

We have a deep threat in Samuel. We just don't use him. 

Also, it is not a pleasant feeling allowing a jump ball way down field one on one with a guy like KB for your typical DB. Teams will usually play a S or two back. As you don't want to fug up and give away a free TD on a mishap from one defender. 

Can you explain why exactly we can not sustain success dinking and dunking assuming the D it to us?

We went to the Super Bowl with our deep ball game. Using Ted Ginn as our centerpiece.

Having Olsen out really hurts, on top of everything else it's no wonder the offense is garbage.

I'm not saying we can't win dinking and dunking, I'm saying that the way we're forcing our offense through CMC is not sustainable. It's definitely not if we kick that up a notch even more.

Get someone that is actually a threat deep back there, and that would go along way to helping a lot of the offensive issues. Samuel has real potential, but he's going to have some growing pains. If he makes mistakes, accept it and keep going at him. If he works out great, if not at least you know what you've got.

[PrimeTimeHeel]

2 minutes ago, TheRed said:

We went to the Super Bowl with our deep ball game. Using Ted Ginn as our centerpiece.

Having Olsen out really hurts, on top of everything else it's no wonder the offense is garbage.

I'm not saying we can't win dinking and dunking, I'm saying that the way we're forcing our offense through CMC is not sustainable. It's definitely not if we kick that up a notch even more.

Get someone that is actually a threat deep back there, and that would go along way to helping a lot of the offensive issues. Samuel has real potential, but he's going to have some growing pains. If he makes mistakes, accept it and keep going at him. If he works out great, if not at least you know what you've got.

That yr was an anomaly. We can not use it as any standard. 

If the D is leaving CMC open then by all means give it to him. 

Any plan of attack is sustainable if the D gives it to you and doesn't adjust. 

The issue we have is play design, plays calls, and Cam making some boneheaded decisions at times. 

We can be successful even without Olsen and without a true deep threat. You just got to know what you have and how to use them effectively. 

That aint happening with Shula. He is a one year wonder as an OC in his entire career. 

Mediocre at best. 

Which is not acceptable for a team that should strive for excellence. 

[Jangler]

The 49ers from the 80's is what we should be doing. But Shula wants to be new and different.

[TheRed]

Just now, PrimeTimeHeel said:

That yr was an anomaly. We can not use it as any standard. 

If the D is leaving CMC open then by all means give it to him. 

Any plan of attack is sustainable if the D gives it to you and doesn't adjust. 

The issue we have is play design, plays calls, and Cam making some boneheaded decisions at times. 

We can be successful even without Olsen and without a true deep threat. You just got to know what you have and how to use them effectively. 

That aint happening with Shula. He is a one year wonder as an OC in his entire career. 

Mediocre at best. 

Which is not acceptable for a team that should strive for excellence. 

I get your frustration with Shula, I really do. I agree about poor play design and bad play calls. All that has to improve.

Not sure how can you call 2015 an anomaly. That's exactly the type of football the Panthers want to play. Stout defense, punishing run game, and speed deep. On top of all that Cam Newton as a threat on any given down.

Even if we do start force feeding CMC even more, eventually defenses are going to adjust. When you can't run the ball, and you have no deep threat, the D is going to begin teeing off on the QB.

I completely disagree about ultimately being successful without an adequate deep threat. If that's the type of offense you want, then it's time to blow it all up, because that isn't Cam Newton football.

[PrimeTimeHeel]

6 minutes ago, TheRed said:

I get your frustration with Shula, I really do. I agree about poor play design and bad play calls. All that has to improve.

Not sure how can you call 2015 an anomaly. That's exactly the type of football the Panthers want to play. Stout defense, punishing run game, and speed deep. On top of all that Cam Newton as a threat on any given down.

Even if we do start force feeding CMC even more, eventually defenses are going to adjust. When you can't run the ball, and you have no deep threat, the D is going to begin teeing off on the QB.

I completely disagree about ultimately being successful without an adequate deep threat. If that's the type of offense you want, then it's time to blow it all up, because that isn't Cam Newton football.

Wanting to do something and expecting to achieve something are two different things. 

Expecting Shula to produce a number 1 offense or what ever offense we had that year again is not logical. 

That is the whole point, when the D adjusts and takes away CMC short, that will open up other parts of the field. 

Our run problems are due to play design and play calls mostly. As I said, slow developing pulling run plays up the middle on most 1st downs against 8 or more man boxes will not be successful. I don't care who your HB is. 

 

[lightsout]

It's always funny when people that do not understand what goes into a play or a system try to say what a team SHOULD be doing.

In our system, Cam operates as intended. The issue with our system is an over-reliance on plays built to try to hit the 40 yard pass on the majority of plays. Always have a deep route, sure. Whether it be a post, corner, or simple go route you can determine if they're going to come open based on 1. identifying the coverage and 2. noticing if that player is beating his man. Notice man coverage outside and you know that matchup wins more times than not? Take that shot. Steve Smith built his entire career with Jake around that simple process. The problem here is that we have a lot of plays with 2 or 3 receivers running routes that go deep. Usually two go routes and a corner or post. Seriously, the next time you're at a Panthers game in BoA, just watch the route combinations. You will see 2 or 3 of the receiving options are deep. What's the progression there? Usually that post is going to be the first look on Cover 2 or man coverage. Fine. After that, checking at least one go route (usually to the strength side. So whatever side has numbers, that's likely the next step in the progression). Then you come underneath unless you want to check that backside route to see if maybe you have a 1 on 1 that you like (Cam does this often). 

When people say "Cam doesn't go through his progressions and see open guys underneath", that last part is true. It frustrates me and everybody else, clearly. But that sentence is not true entirely. Neither is "Cam doesn't have the internal clock to get rid of the ball". Cam is simply going through Shula's system's progression. Multiple deep routes being at least the first two reads in that progression. By the time he gets through those, because of the length of time it takes for those to be seen, he's having to pull the trigger on a throw or run for his life.

Those nice 10-15 yard out routes are great, but are likely the first or second read. Those are playcalls meant to hit there, as evidenced by how often we throw them. Against Tampa Bay, for instance. We kept throwing between the numbers and sideline. Why? Because it's what this offense is more times than not. Get a bunch of yardage and it's relatively safe. Throw the ball outside, make your receiver catch it right at the sideline with worst case being a defender making a crazy interception, assuming you don't throw the ball too tight in to the receiver or behind him. We never even tempted the middle of the field as an option consistently. This lead to Tampa being able to just stay inside and tight to our receivers KNOWING they were going to break outside, which lead to an interception.

Cam is doing what he is meant to do within this offense. Again, Shula hurts us purely by the design of the system and the way he calls plays. It's crazy predictable.

[Salisburysean98]

This is the thing when you talk about short and taking what the defense gives you to move those chains... Eventually if successful you'll get down to the red zone. When you get to the 10 it's all about execution. The field shortens, coverages still play a part for extremely good QBs that can fit the ball into some tight windows and coverage without getting it picked off. Playcalling down there is key, If you've passed your way to the red zone and you're at the goaline... The defense is always thinking run,  my gripe with Shula and our playcalling is why run the ball up the middle 3 times in a row? Fug that noise, play action bootleg Cam and score. Give him some sort of throw underneath and back of the endzone. Worst case scenario is we don't score, but our red zone offense has been abysmal overall. 

[tiger7_88]

8 hours ago, pantherclaw said:

Until one accepts that a qb can and does read coverages, PrimeTimeHeel, you can keep spewing whatever you want to that you know nothing about.

WHY DID NO ONE EVER THINK OF THIS AMAZING CONCEPT BEFORE RIGHT??!?!?!

SHORT TO LONG!  ITS GOING TO REVOLUTIONIZE THE SPORT!!!

lol

[SCMunnerlyn1]

I played in two different offenses in highschool and both were similar in terms of progression. One was a spread with wing-t sets we would whip out in the redzone. The other a singleback set like you would've seen from the Alabama teams before Hurts.

In both they would ask the QB who had a primary "read" or receiver on a play depending upon who that was they would go into their drop looking for them and lets say the read was an out route on the right side. From there the next read was the next receiver to their left or underneath them going back to the left of the field. So basically just right to left or left to right depending where you start. Otherwise you would see a qb taking entirely too long going through progressions. Now to clarify I was an H-back in these offenses so I only over heard our QB taking ass chewings in the film room. So take it with a grain of salt. 

[csx]

Here is an interesting piece describing 4 receiver progressions going low to high and explaining why. Of course QBs go through more than one or two 

 

Quote

We are going to dissect one play from an NFL game where the quarterback uses this technique and you’ll see that the quarterback looks like he is throwing right into double-coverage, but in reality he is just going through his 1 st and 2nd options in the passing concept before he finally goes to the #4 receiver in the progression. All five receivers released into the pattern and the quarterback was left with a five-man protection scheme which didn’t account for an outside blitz that was showing. The quarterback was able to get to the final receiver in the progression even with an unblocked linebacker coming at him because of the way he was able to react during the play.

 

http://topgunqbacademy.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/QB-Progressions-1.pdf

 

Also reads are done low-high and high-low.  So this happens already. There is a ton of info regarding these concepts just a google search away.

Quote

This is a low to high progression for two reasons; first the drag route is going to open up first if it doesn’t get walled off by a linebacker jumping the route. Secondly, if the curl was #1 in the progression, the drag route would bleed into the “X” receiver’s route by the time the quarterback came off the curl route, which means it’s not a viable 2 nd option if the curl route is covered. You want to stretch the defense horizontally, diagonally and vertically as much as possible and you never want two or more receivers near each other when it’s time for the football to come out.

 

https://www.football-tutorials.com/playaction-bootleg-quarterback-reads-made-simple/

 

Quote

If the QB comes out of the bootleg and the corner has stayed in the flat zone, he will complete his read from High to Low; looking for his deep ball along the sideline, and working his way through all the other routes down to the flat on his side.

If the QB sees the corner has gone up to take the deep zone, he’ll work his reads from Low to High; looking to make the short pass to the back or tight end in the flat.

And if the corner is in man coverage, the QB will make the read from Low to High as well.

 

http://smartfootball.com/quarterbacking/reading-grass-versus-reading-full-coverages-or-keying-specific-pass-defenders#sthash.g6zSVwya.dpbs