Can this defense win a Superbowl?

[LinvilleGorge]

8 minutes ago, hepcat said:

Dude you’re nit picking stats and I’m not even sure why. What are you trying to defend? The 2015 Broncos shut down HOF QBs en route to the Super Bowl and then completely ruined MVP Cam Newton and the Panthers offense. You can’t just say some dumb poo that it’s a “different era” and a badass defense can’t shut down great QBs just because they gave up more yards.

I also added the 2013 Seahawks as a reference who shut down Peyton Manning in a year they were breaking all kinds of offensive records or is that too long ago too?

I'm not "just saying" anything nor am I "nitpicking". I'm actually using statistics to back up what I'm saying. Single games are anecdotal. Season long stats are a much better barometer. 

One of these days I might accept that most people on this board (and most people in general to be fair) have little experience in analytics and I should just not bother, but I'm hard headed. 

[Sean Payton's Vicodin]

No, the secondary sucks ass and the star pkayers in the front 7 are either injured or hot and cold.

This Panthers team is a shittier version of the 2013 squad - the seasons gonna end the same way as that one did.

[CarolinaSamurai]

To me we are one key piece from being able to have that kind of Defense. Either a young excellent DE, Safety, or Corner. 

If we had one more great DE then our one could get pressure with just 4 often.

If we had one more great safety we could up our ints and run stopping while giving Mike adams snaps to rest.

If we had one more great corner we would have both sides of the field locked down instead of just one.

 

If we would have drafted any of these positions this year we'd be in a incredible spot. Instead we wasted picks on an offense that can't do anything. 

[hepcat]

16 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I'm not "just saying" anything nor am I "nitpicking". I'm actually using statistics to back up what I'm saying. Single games are anecdotal. Season long stats are a much better barometer. 

One of these days I might accept that most people on this board (and most people in general to be fair) have little experience in analytics and I should just not bother, but I'm hard headed. 

Yea there are those people on this board but I’m not one of them. And you’re right, you are hard headed. If it’s a different era for offenses, then it’s a different era for defenses too, and sure stats reflect that. So what? It doesn’t change the fundamental fact that a defense will need to be at the top of the pack to win a Super Bowl with an incompetent offense. There have been RECENT examples of that even if the stats don’t look the same as 20 years ago. You’re just the same as a lot of other people in this world that say something wrong and refuse to admit they are wrong and would rather argue to the death rather than just admit it.

The whole point of this thread is whether the Panthers defense is good enough to win a Super Bowl with a bad offense. I think they’ve shown with performances against good QBs that they are not. They were sliced and diced by Drew Brees in a game the offense didn’t show up and the result was a blowout. The defense played mediocre against Detroit and New England and were bailed out because both of those teams have the worst secondaries in the NFL and the Panthers offense benefited from collosal breakdowns in the secondary. Come playoff time I don’t expect that to be a winning formula if the Panthers even make it that far.

[Cyberjag]

I think this defense is good enough to keep the scores low in the playoffs, but they're not dominant enough to make you feel safe if you go up by a touchdown.  However, the offense is potentially going to be a lot better by then.  Obviously, Olsen coming back will be huge.  But Samuel is also emerging as a threat, and he's got the speed we need to open up the offense.  If Ryan Kalil can return as well, then we're probably going to go back to scoring 20+ a game easily.

If things break our way, we're there.  Big if though...

[Smithers]

23 minutes ago, thefuzz said:

Have you seen anything from the return game that leads you to believe that will get better?

I know that CMC has had a couple runs come back for stupid penalties, but for a defensive team to have a shot in the playoffs, they typically need something from STeams.

There is more to ST than returns.  Our coverage units have played well, and that has been a problem area for us for a decade.  

[PantherOnTheProwl1523]

Look at how the Saints games turned out this season. They suffered losses first few games and out of the blue they have a top defense and how did they get there is the question. How does a team that is losing games and suddenly become a top defense like that? Before season started there was some speculation on Panthers and we should get play schemes like Pats use and win games but that is a far fetched idea to even think that way by looking at us now and won't happen. maybe Panthers should implement a combination of Saints/Pats play schemes on their Defenses and Offenses.

[thefuzz]

2 minutes ago, Smithers said:

There is more to ST than returns.  Our coverage units have played well, and that has been a problem area for us for a decade.  

Agreed, I'm just talking about our overall lackluster ST's effort for as long as I can remember.

Maybe this year will be different, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[mc52beast]

Give the D credit for a great game but you have to admit that Winston didn’t look himself yesterday... missed wide open targets on multiple occasions.

Enjoy this years defense  because Wilks will be gone after the season and who knows what Ron will replace him with 

[thefuzz]

Just now, mc52beast said:

Give the D credit for a great game but you have to admit that Winston didn’t look himself yesterday... missed wide open targets on multiple occasions.

Enjoy this years defense  because Wilks will be gone after the season and who knows what Ron will replace him with 

Wilks is likely here again, especially if we don't win any playoff games.

[Danish Panther]

yes - but only if both JP and Luuuuke stays healthy... JP is a beast - I'm still amazed how huge of an impact he has had every game until now. 

 

[LinvilleGorge]

37 minutes ago, hepcat said:

Yea there are those people on this board but I’m not one of them. And you’re right, you are hard headed. If it’s a different era for offenses, then it’s a different era for defenses too, and sure stats reflect that. So what? It doesn’t change the fundamental fact that a defense will need to be at the top of the pack to win a Super Bowl with an incompetent offense. There have been RECENT examples of that even if the stats don’t look the same as 20 years ago. You’re just the same as a lot of other people in this world that say something wrong and refuse to admit they are wrong and would rather argue to the death rather than just admit it.

The whole point of this thread is whether the Panthers defense is good enough to win a Super Bowl with a bad offense. I think they’ve shown with performances against good QBs that they are not. They were sliced and diced by Drew Brees in a game the offense didn’t show up and the result was a blowout. The defense played mediocre against Detroit and New England and were bailed out because both of those teams have the worst secondaries in the NFL and the Panthers offense benefited from collosal breakdowns in the secondary. Come playoff time I don’t expect that to be a winning formula if the Panthers even make it that far.

What in the hell are you actually talking about? I'm sorry you don't like actually looking at numbers. My bad. 

My point here is that the defense is plenty good enough. The offense isn't. 

You use the 2013 Seahawks, but they were 8th in the league in points per game and 4th in the league in rushing yards per game. 

It seems like a lot of people have forgotten that Manning missed 6 games in the 2015 season. The Broncos we faced weren't the same team that struggled on offense for a good chunk of the regular season. In the final three weeks of the regular season through the playoffs the Broncos averaged 23.5ppg and all six of those games were against playoff teams. 

You seem to be fighting mad simply because I have a different opinion and I'm actually willing to backup my opinions  with numbers. It's odd. 

[hepcat]

3 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

What in the hell are you actually talking about? I'm sorry you don't like actually looking at numbers. My bad. 

My point here is that the defense is plenty good enough. The offense isn't. 

You use the 2013 Seahawks, but they were 8th in the league in points per game and 4th in the league in rushing yards per game. 

It seems like a lot of people have forgotten that Manning missed 6 games in the 2015 season. The Broncos we faced weren't the same team that struggled on offense for a good chunk of the regular season. In the final three weeks of the regular season through the playoffs the Broncos averaged 23.5ppg and all six of those games were against playoff teams. 

You seem to be fighting mad simply because I have a different opinion and I'm actually willing to backup my opinions  with numbers. It's odd. 

I'm talking about the fact that you basically said defense doesn't win championships anymore because it's a "different era" and elite QB's in a great system can carve up any defense. That's just not true. I showed you two examples of where great offenses met a great defense in the Superbowl, recently, in this era, and the defense came out on top. If you want to show me a statistical breakdown of why a top defense doesn't matter in winning a championship I'm sure a lot of NFL fans would love to read that.

Not sure what you're even mentioning about Peyton Manning and the Broncos offensive troubles...he was basically benched that year because of "injury" and he was completely ineffective in the playoffs. He turned the ball over twice in the Superbowl, had a QB Rating of 56.6 and they still won. It's no secret Denver won the Superbowl that year because of an elite defense that was able to score on its own.

The question this thread posed, and the main place we disagree, is that I don't think the Panthers defense is good enough to win a Superbowl. They have beaten down bad offenses and were sliced up by good ones. They will face the good ones if they make it to the playoffs. The main problem is outside of James Bradberry, the secondary is not that good. Yesterday against a sorry Bucs team, Jameis Winston had wide open receivers all game. He kept missing them. It was a windy day apparently so who knows how much that effected his game. The game should have been much closer than the score indicated. 

And if you look at the Bears game as another example, where the defense completely shut down the Bears offense outside of ONE play, they still lost because the offense was excruciatingly bad. The Panthers flat out beat themselves through no fault of the defense. In that situation, the defense will need to score on their own and they haven't shown they can do that yet.

Bottom line is I think the Panthers defense has benefited from playing some very bad opponents and is a bit overrated this year. Definitely not Super Bowl caliber.

[LinvilleGorge]

Never once did I say having an elite defense doesn't matter anymore. Far from it. Hence why I'm saying our defense IS Super Bowl caliber. 

When people resort to huge exaggerations and putting word in others' mouths I treat that about the same as a corner throwing in the towel. 

My only point here was that yes, we gave an elite defense that is plenty good enough to win a Super Bowl and that the NFL has instituted a series of rule changes to benefit offense that had led to far higher passing totals in recent years. If you'd like to disagree with that, fine but good luck.

Not sure why you're being so emotional and defensive.