Air Coryell

[rayzor]

9 minutes ago, Snake said:

Both EP and Coryell's base is a strong rushing attack. While our personal and formations really mesh better with the Spread attack. It's why you see almost a conflict of interest on the field. How can you run a spread attack and be a run first team? How can you draft spread players like McCaffrey and Samuel and use them as if they were suited for the Coryell or EP? It's like Shula thought it would be brilliant to run out of the spread. 

i think that's very much the problem.

like you said, we've got the personnel that best fits a spread, but shula can't seem to get his head and mindset out of the coryell/ep mold. i mean that's where his history is. it's fundamentally him and i think it affects his decision making processes.

[rayzor]

11 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

I've asked it before: Why would you take a quarterback like Newton and try to make him a game manager? 

I don't honestly know how much thought Rivera puts into our offensive system. Heck, when we were interviewing OCs we looked at a West Coast guy. I remember wondering "Does Rivera think this stuff doesn't matter?"

it's all offense.

[friendlysmith]

The issue is not the "possession" receivers... If Kelvin was on 90% of any other nfl teams, he would be considered a superstar. Cam Newton has the worst accuracy in the league. 

[PrimeTimeHeel]

2 hours ago, Snake said:

Both EP and Coryell's base is a strong rushing attack. While our personal and formations really mesh better with the Spread attack. It's why you see almost a conflict of interest on the field. How can you run a spread attack and be a run first team? How can you draft spread players like McCaffrey and Samuel and use them as if they were suited for the Coryell or EP? It's like Shula thought it would be brilliant to run out of the spread. 

How can you run a spread attack and be a run first team?

Very simple. 

Come out in a 3W,1TE,1RB set. Spread them out trips to one side. 

If the defense 1st comes out in pass D with a light box you run the rock. If the D comes out in run D with a heavy box you pass the rock. 

This is not complicated stuff. 

This whole run first or pass first stuff is just retarded. You attack the weakness of the D giving you the offense the advantage to more effectively move the chains and score points. 

 

[CPantherKing]

The Air Coryell is based on a power running game and a mid to deep range passing game.

This offense needs a strong pass catching TE that can run mid range and deep WR routes. A hybrid WR/TE works well too, but they have to be able to catch the ball well. These receivers must be efficient in catching their targets. Olsen, Smith and Cotchery have been the only efficient receivers in Shula's Carolina offense.

The Panthers finally have a RB that can fill a hybrid RB/WR role and efficiently catch the ball. That has been an ongoing need.

The QB needs to be strong on timing routes while throwing to a spot on the field with mid range and deep routes. This has been an issue with Cam.

There needs to be a deep threat WR with good hands. Steve Smith was the last WR to fill this role effectively.

I believe the offense can be effective as long as they only have an issue with one of these requirements. The Air Coryell can be dominant when they meet all the requirements.

So, the one weakness the Panthers can accept is the inefficiency of Newton on his timing and accuracy due to the strengths Newton brings to the hybrid/option aspect of the Air Coryell. They must have Olsen, McCaffrey, and a deep threat WR with good hands on the field.

With Olsen out, Cam struggling, and no efficient deep threat WR, the Panthers have had to lean on McCaffrey to move the offense. That is your issue. Defenses know this and they are sitting on the run and focusing on McCaffrey.

The Panthers need to prove they have an efficient WR threat in the mid and deep range passing game with Newton able to stay in the pocket and hit his deep timing passes. That is why you see all the forced deep balls. Someone needs to step up at receiver and show they have efficient hands. Once the Panthers prove a receiver to be an efficient threat, then the running game will open up.

[rayzor]

2 hours ago, friendlysmith said:

The issue is not the "possession" receivers... If Kelvin was on 90% of any other nfl teams, he would be considered a superstar. Cam Newton has the worst accuracy in the league. 

[shaqattaq]

12 hours ago, Eazy-E said:

If the Panthers really wanted to evolve on offense they should have let Shula go and brought someone in who can work with our personnel, or forced Shula to adapt and make changes to his game plans. Obviously neither of those things happened and what we are now whitnessing is the abomination that is the 2017 Panthers offense.

They brought in that guy, but he's our WR coach. I'm not saying that Lance has the chops to be our OC, just that he knows how to use CMC effectively.

[Snake]

9 hours ago, rayzor said:

i think that's very much the problem.

like you said, we've got the personnel that best fits a spread, but shula can't seem to get his head and mindset out of the coryell/ep mold. i mean that's where his history is. it's fundamentally him and i think it affects his decision making processes.

I think it's more Rivera wanting a run first team. You have to give credit where it's due. He made it work in 15 by using our QB as a power back. Now though it's completely broken. 

[Snake]

7 hours ago, PrimeTimeHeel said:

How can you run a spread attack and be a run first team?

Very simple. 

Come out in a 3W,1TE,1RB set. Spread them out trips to one side. 

If the defense 1st comes out in pass D with a light box you run the rock. If the D comes out in run D with a heavy box you pass the rock. 

This is not complicated stuff. 

This whole run first or pass first stuff is just retarded. You attack the weakness of the D giving you the offense the advantage to more effectively move the chains and score points. 

 

This is not madden and we don't have the oline to take that on. Defenses simply don't declare like that. 

[Peppers90 NC]

10 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Rivera said when he first got here that he planned to "dictate the game".  He wanted us to be one of those teams where you know what we're going to do but you just can't stop it.

There are definitely teams (great teams) who can do these things.  We're not one of them.

So if you go that route, but you're not good enough, you're stuck with a team whose next move everyone can predict, and thus they can also stop it.

That sounds about right, as we see we rarely do anything different or even attack weaknesses. I wish we were good enough to do that.

How many great teams have done this in the past with sustained success? I cant think of any at least in recent and relevant history.

The one team that has sustained success(Pats) is the polar opposite of that concept that Ron is suggesting. To me it just sounds lazy, conservative and not wanting to leave their little comfy blanket at the house when they step outside.

[Peppers90 NC]

4 minutes ago, Snake said:

This is not madden and we don't have the oline to take that on. Defenses simply don't declare like that. 

Yea they do, they either come out in base, nickel or dime. The personal is what the guy is suggesting we attack to. Whether or not we execute is a different story, but  we should come out of the huddle with 3 plays to run which would attack what the defense gives us.

[thefuzz]

11 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Rivera said when he first got here that he planned to "dictate the game".  He wanted us to be one of those teams where you know what we're going to do but you just can't stop it.

There are definitely teams (great teams) who can do these things.  We're not one of them.

So if you go that route, but you're not good enough, you're stuck with a team whose next move everyone can predict, and thus they can also stop it.

Teams that do this are antiquated, as is the thought process.

Honestly, I can't even really point to what isn't working on our offense....maybe it's because everything isn't working...I don't know.

[PrimeTimeHeel]

3 hours ago, Snake said:

This is not madden and we don't have the oline to take that on. Defenses simply don't declare like that. 

What are you talking about? 

Defenses don't "declare" like that?

A defense has to choose to use a normal package or a nickle or dime package. 

A defense has to choose to drop S's back or put them in the box. 

A defense has to choose to be base aligned or spread out and man align. 

As for oline, this is much more simpler. Straight ahead body on body, no pulling etc less defenders to worry about. 

Sorry, but not buying these excuses. 

Football is football. 

[Snake]

11 hours ago, Peppers90 NC said:

Yea they do, they either come out in base, nickel or dime. The personal is what the guy is suggesting we attack to. Whether or not we execute is a different story, but  we should come out of the huddle with 3 plays to run which would attack what the defense gives us.

You do realize not even the Packers with rodgers or the Pats with Brady do this? Defenses at least good ones audible or mask there coverage. You might have two audibles you use but thats it. It's why good OCs are hard to find because if it was as easy as just having a QB audible a OC wouldn't be important. Play call choices are the life blood of any coordinator and how successful you are at that is the difference between Jeff Davidson and Shaun Payton.