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Yeah no. Shaq doesn't "suck" and neither does our defense.

Saca312

By Saca312,
in Carolina Panthers

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ncfan Grand Master

ncfan

Posted
Posted
17 minutes ago, Saca312 said:

Alright, time for me to give a quick summary of why our defense failed on Sunday. 

Simply put, gap discipline and personnel was not the best of choice. Wilks called a lot of base 4-3 defense against the Saints in hopes of stopping the run. The issue with that idea is the amount of stress that puts on linebackers, especially with the pre-snap motion and the ever-present fear of play-action/mismatch exploitation.

In all honesty, the whole linebacker corps failed. Luke Kuechly looked average and was completely swindled on a few plays. So was Thomas Davis. Shaq Thompson was also not spared from this. The fact of the matter is our defense was outsmarted by Peyton.

Presnap-motion was huge in how the Saints took advantage of the defense. Take a look at Billy's thoughts below:

The Saints deserve credit.. They were able to manipulate the gaps by placing an emphasis on presnap motion.

Presnap Motion

The Saints first rushing attempt was only a 5 yard gain, but the way they motioned some of their pass catchers was a sign of things to come.

presnap1.jpg

The Panthers are lined up in a 4-3 over. Strong safety Mike Adams is in the box. When Brees motions Tommy Lee Lewis, Shaq Thompson follows.

presnap2.png

Due to the motion and Thompson following, Brees is alerted that the Panthers are in man coverage. Therefore, the run goes to the weakside where the Saints have the advantage. Why is the B gap unaccounted for? If Thompson follows, then Luke Kuechly and Thomas Davis have to shift quicker.

Here's what Billy concluded:

 

 

So, in effect, everyone on defense had a rough outing. Thomas Davis made mistakes, and Luke Kuechly showed his imperfect side as well. Due to scheme, personnel, and just weird things, our defense didn't perform at its utmost.

Vincent from riotreport goes even deeper on the defense in this article. 

https://theriotreport.com/ground-pain-how-the-saints-ran-on-the-panthers/

Similar conclusion.

Going back to more nickel should only serve to help the Panthers defense.

And on Shaq Thompson. He actually made up for Bradberry's mistake on this pretty huge play. But tell me again he's a bad linebacker who regressed.

So yes, our defense failed. Our linebackers failed. Luke Kuechly, Thomas Davis, and Shaq Thompson all had their fair share of issues.

But expect this to be an anomaly. After all, Wilks is a rookie DC. He's already showed willingness to learn and own up to his mistakes. I wouldn't put it past him to learn that base defense against teams stressing every bit of athleticism of defenses through spread concepts isn't a good idea. 

So, Shaq doesn't suck. Neither does the Panthers defense.

You'll see.

Problem is with that last video. If you look closer, Bree's hasnt released the ball yet and looks the way of the underneath. Both guys lined up in sight, as soon as he sees Bradberry release to the underneath he finds the opening up top.  Bradberry doesnt make the to the inside, there is a wide open WR who has beat the other LB guarding him there (You saw Michael Thomas doing it all day) Quick 8 yard pitch and were sitting here complaining Bradberry didnt make the right read.  

Bree's has read the holes in this zone D since Rivera has been here, besides the long passes he wouod throw to Cooks, he's been a master of quick passes.

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Ace_Aladdin Newbie

Ace_Aladdin

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6 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Yeah... no. There's a reason why the nickel formation has become the de facto base base defensive alignment in the NFL. The 4-3 was never intended to defend against spread formations. It was intended to defend against base formations. When you start putting 3+ WRs on the field, there are definite mismatches for a 4-3 defense.

 

What the hell are you talking about  our LBs can cover  spread formation it was mental lapse that led to big gains by WR.

 

 

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LinvilleGorge Grand Master

LinvilleGorge

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1 minute ago, sanjay_rajput said:

What the hell are you talking about  our LBs can cover  spread formation it was mental lapse that led to big gains by WR.

 

 

One play is just that... one play. If you routinely put three LBs on the field against spread formations you're gonna get lit up.

You should just stick to repetitively posting about double TE sets because when you try to actually talk football you expose yourself quicker than a 4-3 vs. the spread.

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Ace_Aladdin Newbie

Ace_Aladdin

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

One play is just that... one play. If you routinely put three LBs on the field against spread formations you're gonna get lit up.

You should just stick to repetitively posting about double TE sets because when you try to actually talk football you expose yourself quicker than a 4-3 vs. the spread.

I believe Luke & TD are the best coverage LB with 26 interceptions and Shaq is getting better with experience like the play mentioned previously. 

Oh yeah my football knowledge is pretty good cause coaches are sure using this scheme :) . Try to listen you might learn something one day. 

P.S. I did start a thread earlier in the off season claiming we would use more base 4-3 and so far it's true .

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LinvilleGorge Grand Master

LinvilleGorge

Posted
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4 minutes ago, sanjay_rajput said:

I believe Luke & TD are the best coverage LB with 26 interceptions and Shaq is getting better with experience like the play mentioned previously. 

Oh yeah my football knowledge is pretty good cause coaches are sure using this scheme :) . Try to listen you might learn something one day. 

P.S. I did start a thread earlier in the off season claiming we would use more base 4-3 and so far it's true .

Except you're not exactly right.

First, INTs is a terrible stat to use to judge coverage. We all know that Charles Godfrey had a knack for getting INTs but he was largely terrible in coverage. Luke and TD are excellent coverage LBs. Shaq is not Luke or TD. That's why Luke and TD are usually the LBs on the field when we're running nickel. Shaq is a considered a backup in our nickel package.

Second, we have only ran more 4-3 than nickel in one game this year. We were dominant in week one and two running more nickel than base. We were awful in the one game we ran more base than nickel.

Week 1: Captain 56.1% of snaps, Shaq 45.6% of snaps. 217 yards and 3 points allowed.

Week 2: Captain 53.7% of snaps, Shaq 46.3% of snaps. 176 yards and 3 points allowed.

Week 3: Captain 19.0% of snaps, Shaq 91.4% of snaps. 362 yards and 34 points allowed.

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SuperCamDaGawd Newbie

SuperCamDaGawd

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Saca312 said:

Alright, time for me to give a quick summary of why our defense failed on Sunday. 

Simply put, gap discipline and personnel was not the best of choice. Wilks called a lot of base 4-3 defense against the Saints in hopes of stopping the run. The issue with that idea is the amount of stress that puts on linebackers, especially with the pre-snap motion and the ever-present fear of play-action/mismatch exploitation.

In all honesty, the whole linebacker corps failed. Luke Kuechly looked average and was completely swindled on a few plays. So was Thomas Davis. Shaq Thompson was also not spared from this. The fact of the matter is our defense was outsmarted by Peyton.

Presnap-motion was huge in how the Saints took advantage of the defense. Take a look at Billy's thoughts below:

The Saints deserve credit.. They were able to manipulate the gaps by placing an emphasis on presnap motion.

Presnap Motion

The Saints first rushing attempt was only a 5 yard gain, but the way they motioned some of their pass catchers was a sign of things to come.

presnap1.jpg

The Panthers are lined up in a 4-3 over. Strong safety Mike Adams is in the box. When Brees motions Tommy Lee Lewis, Shaq Thompson follows.

presnap2.png

Due to the motion and Thompson following, Brees is alerted that the Panthers are in man coverage. Therefore, the run goes to the weakside where the Saints have the advantage. Why is the B gap unaccounted for? If Thompson follows, then Luke Kuechly and Thomas Davis have to shift quicker.

Here's what Billy concluded:

 

 

So, in effect, everyone on defense had a rough outing. Thomas Davis made mistakes, and Luke Kuechly showed his imperfect side as well. Due to scheme, personnel, and just weird things, our defense didn't perform at its utmost.

Vincent from riotreport goes even deeper on the defense in this article. 

https://theriotreport.com/ground-pain-how-the-saints-ran-on-the-panthers/

Similar conclusion.

Going back to more nickel should only serve to help the Panthers defense.

And on Shaq Thompson. He actually made up for Bradberry's mistake on this pretty huge play. But tell me again he's a bad linebacker who regressed.

So yes, our defense failed. Our linebackers failed. Luke Kuechly, Thomas Davis, and Shaq Thompson all had their fair share of issues.

But expect this to be an anomaly. After all, Wilks is a rookie DC. He's already showed willingness to learn and own up to his mistakes. I wouldn't put it past him to learn that base defense against teams stressing every bit of athleticism of defenses through spread concepts isn't a good idea. 

So, Shaq doesn't suck. Neither does the Panthers defense.

You'll see.

Love your breakdowns, just one question.....if we are struggling at SS why haven't  they tried Shaq there?  He played Safety in college it doesn't hurt to try it,  if they use him in situations of covering WRs.  Just curious

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Ace_Aladdin Newbie

Ace_Aladdin

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16 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Except you're not exactly right.

First, INTs is a terrible stat to use to judge coverage. We all know that Charles Godfrey had a knack for getting INTs but he was largely terrible in coverage. Luke and TD are excellent coverage LBs. Shaq is not Luke or TD. That's why Luke and TD are usually the LBs on the field when we're running nickel. Shaq is a considered a backup in our nickel package.

Second, we have only ran more 4-3 than nickel in one game this year. We were dominant in week one and two running more nickel than base. We were awful in the one game we ran more base than nickel.

Week 1: Captain 56.1% of snaps, Shaq 45.6% of snaps. 217 yards and 3 points allowed.

Week 2: Captain 53.7% of snaps, Shaq 46.3% of snaps. 176 yards and 3 points allowed.

Week 3: Captain 19.0% of snaps, Shaq 91.4% of snaps. 362 yards and 34 points allowed.

Still 13 more games, so still an ongoing statistics. The 2 teams we played more nickel with had the shiter WR corp & QB so the stats really don't tell the true story.

We should use both but to proclaim Nickel is the better package is not true so far.

 

 

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Bartin Collaborator

Bartin

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46 minutes ago, sanjay_rajput said:

What the hell are you talking about  our LBs can cover  spread formation it was mental lapse that led to big gains by WR.

 

 

If the WR doesn't let up during his route Shaq doesn't get there and that's 6. Shaq can't cover that.

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