Yeah no. Shaq doesn't "suck" and neither does our defense.

[Saca312]

Alright, time for me to give a quick summary of why our defense failed on Sunday. 

Simply put, gap discipline and personnel was not the best of choice. Wilks called a lot of base 4-3 defense against the Saints in hopes of stopping the run. The issue with that idea is the amount of stress that puts on linebackers, especially with the pre-snap motion and the ever-present fear of play-action/mismatch exploitation.

In all honesty, the whole linebacker corps failed. Luke Kuechly looked average and was completely swindled on a few plays. So was Thomas Davis. Shaq Thompson was also not spared from this. The fact of the matter is our defense was outsmarted by Peyton.

Presnap-motion was huge in how the Saints took advantage of the defense. Take a look at Billy's thoughts below:

The Saints deserve credit.. They were able to manipulate the gaps by placing an emphasis on presnap motion.

Presnap Motion

The Saints first rushing attempt was only a 5 yard gain, but the way they motioned some of their pass catchers was a sign of things to come.

The Panthers are lined up in a 4-3 over. Strong safety Mike Adams is in the box. When Brees motions Tommy Lee Lewis, Shaq Thompson follows.

Due to the motion and Thompson following, Brees is alerted that the Panthers are in man coverage. Therefore, the run goes to the weakside where the Saints have the advantage. Why is the B gap unaccounted for? If Thompson follows, then Luke Kuechly and Thomas Davis have to shift quicker.

Here's what Billy concluded:

 

Quote

 

The pass defense also had a rough day too, but the run defense is expected to be the strong suit. The majority of the explosive runs came when the Panthers were in base defense. Shaq Thompson was moved away from the box, which allowed the Saints to dictate matchups. The Panthers showed commendable effort though, so that’s a positive for the long term. They didn’t show any quit.

The combination of individual breakdowns, scheme issues, and gap fits caused issues. The Panthers should play more nickel with Captain Munnerlyn moving forward. They have one of the best nickel units in the league. Hopefully this is a learning experience for defensive coordinator Steve Wilks. They have to find solutions because they face another hall of fame coach and quarterback on Sunday.

 

 

So, in effect, everyone on defense had a rough outing. Thomas Davis made mistakes, and Luke Kuechly showed his imperfect side as well. Due to scheme, personnel, and just weird things, our defense didn't perform at its utmost.

Vincent from riotreport goes even deeper on the defense in this article. 

https://theriotreport.com/ground-pain-how-the-saints-ran-on-the-panthers/

Similar conclusion.

Going back to more nickel should only serve to help the Panthers defense.

And on Shaq Thompson. He actually made up for Bradberry's mistake on this pretty huge play. But tell me again he's a bad linebacker who regressed.

So yes, our defense failed. Our linebackers failed. Luke Kuechly, Thomas Davis, and Shaq Thompson all had their fair share of issues.

But expect this to be an anomaly. After all, Wilks is a rookie DC. He's already showed willingness to learn and own up to his mistakes. I wouldn't put it past him to learn that base defense against teams stressing every bit of athleticism of defenses through spread concepts isn't a good idea. 

So, Shaq doesn't suck. Neither does the Panthers defense.

You'll see.

[LinvilleGorge]

They both sucked this past Sunday. No way around that.

[*FreeFua*]

God I wish we'd stick Shaq at strong safety, so damn athletic 

[Saca312]

2 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

They both sucked this past Sunday. No way around that.

playing in base defense most of the game against a spread offense when we're one of the best nickel defenses in the league can do it for you. Learning experience for Wilks, understanding that base defense to stop the run against spread concepts isn't going to work. He's fessed up to it as much. 

 

[LinvilleGorge]

1 minute ago, Saca312 said:

playing in base defense most of the game against a spread offense when we're one of the best nickel defenses in the league can do it for you. Learning experience for Wilks, understanding that base defense to stop the run against spread concepts isn't going to work. He's fessed up to it as much. 

 

Ironically, what Wilks employed against the Saints was essentially exactly what Gettleman and Rivera promised when they drafted Shaq. They sold us Shaq as a LB who had the type of coverage abilities to allow us to stay in our base 4-3 D far more often.

[arbnranger]

Thanks Saca.

[Saca312]

Just now, LinvilleGorge said:

Ironically, what Wilks employed against the Saints was essentially exactly what Gettleman and Rivera promised when they drafted Shaq. They sold us Shaq as a LB who had the type of coverage abilities to allow us to stay in our base 4-3 D far more often.

Shaq's athletic. No doubt about that. But he's at his best as a true linebacker.

Anyway you put it, we should not have run base against a spread team. Should've been obvious after the Tennessee preseason game that doesn't work. Surprised Wilks persisted on that week 3. 

It is what it is. 

[Bartin]

Your "highlight" play of Shaq is not really a highlight. His responsibility is the deep sideline and Bradberry has the short and intermediate routes in a cover 2 look on that side. Nice play for a LB but a DB gets there and breaks up the pass. The DE that ends up in the flat covering the slot receiver doesn't have that as his primary responsibility. He's there because there was nothing over the middle.

[rayzor]

if they hold their own vs. the pats, then yeah maybe this was an anomaly.

 

i need to see that happen for any semblance of faith to be restored.

[Ace_Aladdin]

7 minutes ago, Saca312 said:

Shaq's athletic. No doubt about that. But he's at his best as a true linebacker.

Anyway you put it, we should not have run base against a spread team. Should've been obvious after the Tennessee preseason game that doesn't work. Surprised Wilks persisted on that week 3. 

It is what it is. 

 

You are contradicting yourself, you just made points that he dropped in coverage  & was excellent making up for Bradberry.  What this shows is that this came down to mental lapse more so than scheme. Chemistry is still developing among players look for 4-3 base to get better and become the best package for this defense.

The whole point of 4-3 is that you can play the run & spread teams without changing personnel

Quote

This is an incredible zone drop by Shaq Thompson after Bradberry incorrectly guesses on the underneath route. Few linebackers can cover this ground.

 

[Saca312]

7 minutes ago, Bartin said:

Your "highlight" play of Shaq is not really a highlight. His responsibility is the deep sideline and Bradberry has the short and intermediate routes in a cover 2 look on that side. Nice play for a LB but a DB gets there and breaks up the pass. The DE that ends up in the flat covering the slot receiver doesn't have that as his primary responsibility. He's there because there was nothing over the middle.

Yeah that wasn’t the point I was making. But you’re right on the breakdown.

More-so props to Shaq  - a LB - being able to make that play. Ian’s caption did read the play incorrectly, but what I meant to highlight was Shaq’s athleticism and playmaking itself.

[LinvilleGorge]

8 minutes ago, Saca312 said:

Shaq's athletic. No doubt about that. But he's at his best as a true linebacker.

Anyway you put it, we should not have run base against a spread team. Should've been obvious after the Tennessee preseason game that doesn't work. Surprised Wilks persisted on that week 3. 

It is what it is. 

I don't disagree with you regarding our approach.

But IMO, the jury is still out on Shaq. He's just not the type of impact player that I hope for a 3rd year former 1st round pick to be. So far, he basically looks like a JAG and I don't think TD's extension was solely about the Panthers' family approach. Part of it was probably because Shaq really hasn't shown the ability to step in and replace TD yet. To say he "sucks" is a bit much, but I think it's fair to say that he hasn't lived up to his draft status as of yet.

[Ace_Aladdin]

3 minutes ago, Saca312 said:

Yeah that wasn’t the point I was making. But you’re right on the breakdown.

More-so props to Shaq  - a LB - being able to make that play. 

 

Quote

Shaq's athletic. No doubt about that. But he's at his best as a true linebacker.

Anyway you put it, we should not have run base against a spread team. Should've been obvious after the Tennessee preseason game that doesn't work. Surprised Wilks persisted on that week 3. 

It is what it is. 

The whole point of 4-3 is that you can play the run & spread teams without changing personnel. Shaq showed he can cover just as well as doing run stopping. 4-3 works it's the mental lapse that killed this defense not the scheme.

 

 

[LinvilleGorge]

4 minutes ago, sanjay_rajput said:

 

The whole point of 4-3 is that you can play the run & spread teams without changing personnel

Yeah... no. There's a reason why the nickel formation has become the de facto base base defensive alignment in the NFL. The 4-3 was never intended to defend against spread formations. It was intended to defend against base formations. When you start putting 3+ WRs on the field, there are definite mismatches for a 4-3 defense.