Changing the Launch Point

[Snake]

9 minutes ago, Hogmolliesmaht said:

So pay attention to that next time. It was actually more than 15 seconds on most plays and it didn't appear to me like Cam was in a big hurry either, except for when he was having trouble with this helmet. I just want people to keep an open mind be honest about what you see instead of automatically bashing Shula just because that's what the cool kids are doing. I do blame Shula for not changing the launch point of Cam's throws more often, but I also blame Cam for not speaking up about it. Surely he knows the value of rolling out every once in a while and having the option to run or pass better than us dumb ass fans. After all, he's the one who is taking those big hits in the pocket.

I would also like to see Cam stop trying to spin out to his left when he gets in trouble. Every Panthers opponent knows that tendency just as well or better than we do and the result is usually more lost sack yardage.

Look if you have ever read anything I have said about Shula I give him credit where it's due but how does every other team in the league get set up before the Panthers. I really doubt it's because Cam is lolly gaging around. Maybe it's because they want to drain time or maybe it's because the play doesn't get in but it's something other than a slow QB. In regards to Cam not speaking up I honestly don't think he's unhappy at this point. Cam takes hits because of Cam and that's not great for the team because he needs to stay healthy. As far as Cam rolls to his left one could make the argument that if the oline would give him more space to move around he would. Look at the space Tom Brady has or Aaron Rodgers. Then look at the space the 49ers or Seahawks give there QB. It's miles different. 

[thefuzz]

35 minutes ago, Snake said:

Look if you have ever read anything I have said about Shula I give him credit where it's due but how does every other team in the league get set up before the Panthers. I really doubt it's because Cam is lolly gaging around. Maybe it's because they want to drain time or maybe it's because the play doesn't get in but it's something other than a slow QB. In regards to Cam not speaking up I honestly don't think he's unhappy at this point. Cam takes hits because of Cam and that's not great for the team because he needs to stay healthy. As far as Cam rolls to his left one could make the argument that if the oline would give him more space to move around he would. Look at the space Tom Brady has or Aaron Rodgers. Then look at the space the 49ers or Seahawks give there QB. It's miles different. 

Part of what I have bolded, is the proof that both Brady and Rodgers have proven over and over again that they can kill you against the blitz.

Whereas the blitz was what crushed our super bowl hopes, and have plagued us since.  

[Catufb85]

I've played football since i was 8 and was fortunate enough to play up to college level and got to coach college and high school after playing.  I slightly agree with you that the issue with Cam's mechanics is his launch point *sometimes*  Some types of throws require certain grip pressure, angle of the follow through, forward lean or weight in the back foot.  My conclusion to looking at many still shots and slow motion clips of Cam's throwing mechanics lead me to believe it is all in his feet.  Average fans, which i wouldn't consider any huddler because you can time out of your day to be on here lol, would ask how in the world would his feet have anything to do with him throwing a ball...with his arm and hand.  well if you watch any educational video or instructional video on throwing mechanics you will here a overlying theme in each that talks more about body position, feet placement, weight balance, and the follow through. "Thumb in the pocket" 

Let me show you why Cam on certain throws puts more zing on the ball than your wife's bloody mary on Sundays (pun intended) when he executes his mechanics properly, but examples below show why when he throws off his back foot, go ahead and close your eyes and pray.

 

 

Example 1: Cam has perfect form on the start of the snap, both hands on ball high on body, could be slightly higher.

Example 2: His normal follow through and launch point is actually really good and fluid into his follow through. "Thumb in Pocket"

Example 3: Here is Cam throwing i believe at Pro Day where his mechanics are going to be drastically criticized.  Left arm up and elbow leading him to his intended target.  Feet has a good base for weight distribution.  Weight on front foot, light on the back.  Ball is high to have a good downward motion allowing zip on the ball.

Example 4:  All good upstairs, look at his feet, weight is on the back foot, leaning back and falling away from his receiver.  I don't know the outcome of this play but i would be a betting man to say it was high. 

Example 1b:  Rodgers is known for his mechanics. NFC Scout "So mechanical. So robotic." during his combine days.  Weight is in the front foot during his follow through and release allowing the throwing hand and plant foot to follow through.

Example: 2b Yes, QBs have a slight back lean to them when throwing the deep back, to get a high launch trajectory on the ball to go down field.  But notice his feet and weight distribution. more weight on front foot less on the back, even though he's leaning he can still complete his follow through.

Example 1c:  Ball is high in throwing hand, left hand and arm aiming to his receiver.

Example 2c:: Again, Brady and Rodgers are known for their accuracy, everything is perfect upstairs, and down. Good weight on the front foot, slight lean back for power, weight being distributed from back moving forward.

Example 3c: Same as 2c, ball is high in his form, you can see that he will still have a downward launch trajectory because HES STEPPING INTO HIS THROW. Moving weight from back foot to front foot.

Conclusion:  With Brady and Rodgers being two of the most accurate passers of our times and pretty much all time.  Mechanics is a huge part of being a good quarterback, ask The Golden Calf of Bristol (not a burn I love me some The Golden Calf of Bristol) But its not all about trunk rotation and how strong your arm is.  It takes the whole body to complete good mechanics and perfect throws.

Cam gets away because is a physical specimen and we've all seen what happens when Cam takes the snap, ball is high, weight and momentum transfers from back foot into front foot properly, he throws the hardest ball in the league and also way more accurate than the media and "expert" ESPN analysis give him credit for. 

He can't continue to "strong arm" every throw especially not anything inside of 20 yards, slants, outs, hitches, etc.   He has to step into those throws to get a downward trajectory so they don't sail on the receiver.

When you are having 6'5 Dickson, 6'5 Olsen, and 6'6 KB having to test their vertical on curls, stop routes, and outs... Its all in the feet.  

 

[Snake]

1 hour ago, thefuzz said:

Part of what I have bolded, is the proof that both Brady and Rodgers have proven over and over again that they can kill you against the blitz.

Whereas the blitz was what crushed our super bowl hopes, and have plagued us since.  

More correctly there lines can. The way you beat both QB's is hitting them. Rodgers is just as athletic as Cam but he doesn't take the punishment. 

[Snake]

16 minutes ago, Catufb85 said:

I've played football since i was 8 and was fortunate enough to play up to college level and got to coach college and high school after playing.  I slightly agree with you that the issue with Cam's mechanics is his launch point *sometimes*  Some types of throws require certain grip pressure, angle of the follow through, forward lean or weight in the back foot.  My conclusion to looking at many still shots and slow motion clips of Cam's throwing mechanics lead me to believe it is all in his feet.  Average fans, which i wouldn't consider any huddler because you can time out of your day to be on here lol, would ask how in the world would his feet have anything to do with him throwing a ball...with his arm and hand.  well if you watch any educational video or instructional video on throwing mechanics you will here a overlying theme in each that talks more about body position, feet placement, weight balance, and the follow through. "Thumb in the pocket" 

Let me show you why Cam on certain throws puts more zing on the ball than your wife's bloody mary on Sundays (pun intended)

 

 

 

QB and pitchers have very similar mechanics in that it starts with the legs and ends with the shoulder and wrist. Cams problem of late are arm strength more than anything. He has always used his shoulder way to much and it's why balls sail. He should be driving through with his legs but until now he had a super strong arm. This is why we should have had a new QB coach last year. Cam needs someone to teach him how to overcome his injuries. 

[thefuzz]

9 minutes ago, Snake said:

More correctly there lines can. The way you beat both QB's is hitting them. Rodgers is just as athletic as Cam but he doesn't take the punishment. 

I disagree, and agree.

If you have to send extra defenders to get to Brady and Rodgers, they will make you pay bad...if you can get to them with your front 4, you can make them pay.

Shula, Cam, and the O Line haven't figured out how to beat the blitz consistently yet...they need to though.

[Catufb85]

51 minutes ago, thefuzz said:

I disagree, and agree.

If you have to send extra defenders to get to Brady and Rodgers, they will make you pay bad...if you can get to them with your front 4, you can make them pay.

Shula, Cam, and the O Line haven't figured out how to beat the blitz consistently yet...they need to though.

I concur with if you stack the box or blitz Rodgers and Brady you will pay.  But pay in different ways with the same result. Aaron Rodgers was ranked 2nd in 2016 and those ratings are 4th highest since 2009. Rodgers was pressured on 28.8% of the time with a QBR of 71.8.  But Rodgers is the maestro of conducting that pressure of OL and DL around him with easy to create more time with his feet.  Brady doesn't dance, he kills you with wit, check audible to hot routes and changing OL schemes to adjust.

I think we can all agree with our interior 3 offensive lineman are at the top of their positions, however, we have had absolute atrocity at tackles since Gross left.  Cam gets pressured from the edges.

RANK	SEASON	PLAYER	PRESSURE %	QBR
1	2016	Jameis Winston	34.9%	80.7
2	2015	Jay Cutler	30.9	75.0
3	2013	Josh McCown	27.6	73.8
4	2016	Aaron Rodgers	28.8	71.8
5	2015	Ryan Fitzpatrick	22.5	71.5
6	2009	Peyton Manning	15.7	61.2
7	2016	Dak Prescott	29.9	58.4
8	2015	Tyrod Taylor	31.7	57.9
9	2014	Carson Palmer	27.4	52.8
10	2013	Ryan Fitzpatrick	23.9	52.5

 

[thefuzz]

1 minute ago, Catufb85 said:

I concur with if you stack the box or blitz Rodgers and Brady you will pay.  But pay in different ways with the same result. Aaron Rodgers was ranked 2nd in 2016 and those ratings are 4th highest since 2009. Rodgers was pressured on 28.8% of the time with a QBR of 71.8.  But Rodgers is the maestro of conducting that pressure of OL and DL around him with easy to create more time with his feet.  Brady doesn't dance, he kills you with wit, check audible to hot routes and changing OL schemes to adjust.

I think we can all agree with our interior 3 offensive lineman are at the top of their positions, however, we have had absolute atrocity at tackles since Gross left.  Cam gets pressured from the edges.

RANK	SEASON	PLAYER	PRESSURE %	QBR
1	2016	Jameis Winston	34.9%	80.7
2	2015	Jay Cutler	30.9	75.0
3	2013	Josh McCown	27.6	73.8
4	2016	Aaron Rodgers	28.8	71.8
5	2015	Ryan Fitzpatrick	22.5	71.5
6	2009	Peyton Manning	15.7	61.2
7	2016	Dak Prescott	29.9	58.4
8	2015	Tyrod Taylor	31.7	57.9
9	2014	Carson Palmer	27.4	52.8
10	2013	Ryan Fitzpatrick	23.9	52.5

 

Yup.  Rodgers moves all over the place, and can throw from almost every single angle there is.

Brady slides up perfectly, and rarely misses what a defense is trying to do.

 

[Hogmolliesmaht]

3 hours ago, Snake said:

Look if you have ever read anything I have said about Shula I give him credit where it's due but how does every other team in the league get set up before the Panthers. I really doubt it's because Cam is lolly gaging around. Maybe it's because they want to drain time or maybe it's because the play doesn't get in but it's something other than a slow QB. In regards to Cam not speaking up I honestly don't think he's unhappy at this point. Cam takes hits because of Cam and that's not great for the team because he needs to stay healthy. As far as Cam rolls to his left one could make the argument that if the oline would give him more space to move around he would. Look at the space Tom Brady has or Aaron Rodgers. Then look at the space the 49ers or Seahawks give there QB. It's miles different. 

Don't get so defensive. I'm talking to the whole board, not just you. There have been a lot of posts about how the play is coming in late and it's causing Cam to take time outs or keeping him from changing up the snap count, but that's simply not true 99% of the time. BTW, the Bills offense was operating at about the same pace or even slower sometimes but they weren't wasting TO's.

[gmonjimbo]

2 hours ago, Hogmolliesmaht said:

 BTW, the Bills offense was operating at about the same pace or even slower sometimes but they weren't wasting TO's.

I rewatched the second half. The ball was consistently snapped between 8-12 seconds left on the playclock. They got one delay of game after Cam Newton was sacked.

The final drive for the Panthers offense was great until they got to the Bills 1 yard line after the DPI. They tried to punch it in twice and then Cam missed CMC in the flats on third down. 

I think the biggest issue with the offense right now is the O-line. The Bills got them with a delayed blitz and Matt Kalil whiffed on a block.

Run blocking is a major issue as well. We are averaging 33 rush attempts per game, while averaging 2.9 yards per carry. That is very inefficient and is putting the offense behind the sticks. 

[beastson]

19 minutes ago, gmonjimbo said:

I rewatched the second half. The ball was consistently snapped between 8-12 seconds left on the playclock. They got one delay of game after Cam Newton was sacked.

The final drive for the Panthers offense was great until they got to the Bills 1 yard line after the DPI. They tried to punch it in twice and then Cam missed CMC in the flats on third down. 

I think the biggest issue with the offense right now is the O-line. The Bills got them with a delayed blitz and Matt Kalil whiffed on a block.

Run blocking is a major issue as well. We are averaging 33 rush attempts per game, while averaging 2.9 yards per carry. That is very inefficient and is putting the offense behind the sticks. 

The pace of this offense will also help the run game as well. We need to go back to the no-huddle... I can guarantee if we do not we will continue to struggle

[motocross_cat]

If we could ever get our fuging running game going im not sure we would have these conversations every week.

[Hogmolliesmaht]

The consensus seems to be that we need to run more no huddle and do more bootlegs and roll outs and I agree 100%. And yes, getting the running game going cures a lot of ills too. I know they're trying to save Stew for the late season run but I think we will see more of him early and often this week. It also wouldn't hurt to help Matt Kalil out a little bit with some chip blocks by the RB's and TE's.