Honest question about Shula....

[csx]

27 minutes ago, CarolinaSamurai said:

Here is my biggest argument against Shula in this game. You can't blame it on anyone else. Why did we have KB and funch running double out routes when you have Byrd and Samual on the roster and you know they are burners. It makes a long develpoing play that against a good D would have gotten Cam sacked. 

I'm don't suggest the play design was perfection but you don't call plays pretending you are playing a different defense. There were open receivers including Funchess as well as an open short option. He had good protection and all the time he could need. What do you reasonably expect?

[CarolinaSamurai]

2 minutes ago, csx said:

I'm don't suggest the play design was perfection but you don't call plays pretending you are playing a different defense. There were open receivers including Funchess as well as an open short option. He had good protection and all the time he could need. What do you reasonably expect?

I expect the OC to use the players correctly in situations that give them the best possibility to win their matchup and in doing so make the Defensive players respect the play. You run Samuel and KB, or Funch and Byrd, or KB and CMC on that play. Not KB and Funch. You let one of our speedsters take the top off he either pulls more coverage so KB or Funch is one on one in a favorable matchup. Or if they don't respect the speed you just burned them for a big play. Using players incorrectly is something Shula is bad at. He doesn't do it all the time but the times he does it shows me he's not a great OC. 

[Goondal]

23 minutes ago, grimesgoat said:

Thank you for linking these stats.  Very interesting.  I tend to discount the TB years as he was very young and I do not know what their philosophy was.

But the Panthers want to be a running, ball-control team and they want a top 5 defense.  A high scoring offense is not usually paired with a top 5 defense.  Middle of the pack is fine.  This is exactly what Shula delivers.  Few turnovers, efficient clock management and ball control using the running game.  This keeps the defense fresh and aggressive.

The only stat that really matters is 64%.  That is Shula's winning percentage as offensive coordinator.  I would be interested to see how that stacks up against other offensive coordinators over the past 4+ years.

The Bucs basically had the same exact philosophy.  Run the ball and have a top five defense.  Their defense was better than ours.  Their defense during that stretch was the second best I have ever seen over a multi-season stretch behind the Ravens around the same time.  I lived there at the time and their fans hated him much worse than our fanbase does.  

In '99 the Rams had, in my opinion, the best offense I have ever seen and the Bucs defense went into StL for the NFCCG and held them to nine points (FG and TD), the Rams also scored a safety.  It was among the most impressive performances by a unit that I have witnessed.  They lost 11-6 because the weak offense could manage only two FGs (one of those the drive started in the red zone due to a turnover).  So with the same philosophy and a better defense, they still could not get it done.  That game was the final straw and they finally got rid of him.

His offenses are better on average than in Tampa with the main difference being he has Cam Newton instead of Trent Dilfer and Shaun King.  

[Hogmolliesmaht]

21 minutes ago, CarolinaSamurai said:

KB and funch on the outside running deep down feild is the absolute dumbest idea. They are slow what in the world are you talking about. And it doesn't give you a good short pass because no defense is scared of being burned by either of them so why would they give special attention to them vs a crossing route or run. And you can't audible getting different players on the feild that's just a bad argument

Again, what plays are you referring to? If you're talking about the two gifs from the other thread, Cam had other options open in both cases. He had Dickson wide open in one and Samuel was open in the other. Sometimes those long routes are there to clear things out for the shorter routes. Every team in the NFL does this.

[Jangler]

if adequate is what we are striving for, we are excelling at it.

[Woodie]

1 hour ago, Udogg said:

I am legitimately confused about some of the Shula hate.   I have sat in many a game day thread and watched literally in back to back plays where if it fails then it's Shula's fault.  If the play works then it's Cam's brilliance or the great line that Gettleman put together that overcame Shula's horrible play design.   

My question is what would Shula have to do (not requiring a bullet or sitting in the car with the garage door closed) to prove he is an adequate OC?   I mean I understand historically offensive coordinators get all of the blame for the bad plays unless everyone hates the QB, but it seems like every bad play is someway makes it back to Shula.  We should have easily scored 34 points this last game without "player" mistakes.  I don't understand "most" of the hate.  What is it? 

Screen pass on 3rd and 15 that works..  Look that's CMC overcoming Shula's incompetent play.

Cam locking on to the low octane fuel that's KB....  Look at those horrible route concepts by Shula

Running the ball when everyone knew it was coming to run out the last 7 minutes of football game..... Thank god Gettleman assembled this offensive line or Shula would have lost this game. 

Multilayer routes with check downs and outlets ............... Look at the long developing routes. Shula's trying to get Cam killed. 

Using probably our best overall playmaker CMC 20 times............  Why didn't he get as much as Kareem Hunt.. must be Shula's fault. 

 

I honest to god don't understand. I find myself defending Shula when I really don't want to.  Please enlighten me.  

 

The biggest reason is group think.  Too many posters here just go with the masses and jump on the popular bandwagon.  You can always ID them by their comical reasons they throw out or the level of regurgitation they use anytime they talk about Shula.  Some also bought into Jeremy's ranting about his time in TB when he was hired here, and hated from the start, so were never willing to give him a fair chance.  Others are just using hyperbole to express that they want a better option at OC.  And then you have the trolls that just like to stir the pot and cause problems any chance they get.

With that said, I don't think Shula is a great OC by any means.  He's solid, but that's about it.  To put it in player context, he's AJ Klein to Andy Reid's Luke Kuechly.  Would I like an upgrade?  Absolutely!  But I also realize that we could have much worse.  I also think that we have also never had the weapons to truly run a great offense.  We've always been missing something.  But this year we have everything we need to be a dominating offense.  So, we'll see.  No excuses.   

[CarolinaSamurai]

3 minutes ago, Hogmolliesmaht said:

Again, what plays are you referring to? If you're talking about the two gifs from the other thread, Cam had other options open in both cases. He had Dickson wide open in one and Samuel was open in the other.

I'm not talking about any of this gifs posted so far. In the game Shula ran KB and funch outside and both ran out routes. I'm at work I don't have the gif of it so I'll try to get one tonight. 

[tiger7_88]

1 hour ago, DaveThePanther2008 said:

If I am a defensive minded head coach.  I am going after the most brilliant offensive mind I can find.   As much as we all hated Chudz he had an amazing offensive mind. 

I think one thing you don't understand here is that Shula and his plodding, unimaginative, time-consuming, TOP offense is EXACTLY WHAT RIVERA WANTS.

Ron would rather run clock than score points.

[CarolinaSamurai]

4 minutes ago, tiger7_88 said:

I think one thing you don't understand here is that Shula and his plodding, unimaginative, time-consuming, TOP offense is EXACTLY WHAT RIVERA WANTS.

Ron would rather run clock than score points.

Yep. Hammer Time!

[pantherclaw]

1 hour ago, Jeremy Igo said:

1st quarter. 

2nd and 7. 

The Panthers have Jonathan Stewart and Christian McCaffrey, the best RB duo since double trouble. 

 

Hand off to Fozzy Whitaker for 1 yard. 

 

 

lol

Shula isn't even responsible for subsitutions. 

[csx]

In this thread we have people complaining about going for a score and complaining about not trying to score at the same time.

[Hogmolliesmaht]

8 minutes ago, tiger7_88 said:

I think one thing you don't understand here is that Shula and his plodding, unimaginative, time-consuming, TOP offense is EXACTLY WHAT RIVERA WANTS.

Ron would rather run clock than score points.

How is Shula plodding and unimaginative? When you watch these games on TV, the analysts are constantly pointing out how creative the Shula running game is and Shula wanted to draft CMC and Samuel because he wanted more speed to work with. He's not the greatest offensive mind of all time but he's certainly not unimaginative.

 

BTW, any fan can show one or two plays and say they are bad play calls because they didn't work but none of us knows exactly what they're trying to accomplish with those play calls. The OC has to think ahead and he has to do certain things to see how the defense reacts before they can call certain plays later in the game.

[tiger7_88]

4 minutes ago, Hogmolliesmaht said:

How is Shula plodding and unimaginative?

1st and goal at the 6.

Naked bootleg - run up the middle - run up the middle - FG.

[csx]

2 minutes ago, Hogmolliesmaht said:

How is Shula plodding and unimaginative? When you watch these games on TV, the analysts are constantly pointing out how creative the Shula running game is and Shula wanted to draft CMC and Samuel because he wanted more speed to work with. He's not the greatest offensive mind of all time but he's certainly not unimaginative.

 

BTW, any fan can show one or two plays and say they are bad play calls because they didn't work but none of us knows exactly what they're trying to accomplish with those play calls. The OC has to think ahead and he has to do certain things to see how the defense reacts before they can call certain plays later in the game.

Ignoring all the factors and realities of the situation and not having any real knowledge is much easier than paying close attention.