PFF: Refocused Car-23 SF-3

[Saca312]

39 minutes ago, top dawg said:

Hell, SAC's, you should love them considering that they watch more film than anyone (including the all 22 film). 

They are---like it or not---the premiere grading system for the league.

No, they don't.

All-22 isn't compiled and released until Monday Night or Tuesday morning. They come out with these grades minutes after the game. 

So no, they are not 100% efficient at what they do and they are not the end-all be all of grading. Otherwise, we should trade Star right now, because they say he sucks.

[Saca312]

I look at PFF stuff as a starting point. However, I hate when people try and use that as a "but PFF said this" and act like that is the end-all of everything. 

I'll take someone showing evidence and breaking down film, going over the scheme, role, etc. of the player & specific play over anything PFF says.

 

[Eazy-E]

4 hours ago, tiger7_88 said:

And, again, I'm not critical of PFF because they are being critical of Cam on this occasion.  I'm critical of PFF because I've always been critical of PFF.  The fact that Star didn't make one of their highest grades for this game tells me all I need to know about their "system".  Its on par with ESPN's QBR in my opinion.

Cheers to you as well.

I've always thought the same with the QBR comparison. It's a weird system that no one really understands that they can use to manipulate a narrative in what ever way they please.

[JawnyBlaze]

PFF is no more accurate than you or I if we focused on a few players in the game.  I'm curious about this claim that NFL teams use PFF for something.  I know NFLN and probably ESPN (I don't watch ESPN) use it, but that should be damning enough evidence about it by itself.  PFF is some dudes sitting around watching a few players at a time giving their opinions on them.  They don't have any more insight than you or I.  Their classification of what was a drop, what was a blown assignment, things like that are subjective.  So sure, it's a starting point tool.  But if you want any kind of real analysis or intelligence you have to go WAAAAAY beyond PFF.

[Saca312]

3 minutes ago, JawnyBlaze said:

PFF is no more accurate than you or I if we focused on a few players in the game.  I'm curious about this claim that NFL teams use PFF for something.  I know NFLN and probably ESPN (I don't watch ESPN) use it, but that should be damning enough evidence about it by itself.  PFF is some dudes sitting around watching a few players at a time giving their opinions on them.  They don't have any more insight than you or I.  Their classification of what was a drop, what was a blown assignment, things like that are subjective.  So sure, it's a starting point tool.  But if you want any kind of real analysis or intelligence you have to go WAAAAAY beyond PFF.

Exactly. Here's what real NFL players have to say about PFF:

Offensive linemen blast PFF grades, NFL coaching

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Four NFL offensive linemen spoke with CBS Sports' Pete Prisco and unloaded on the state of coaching in the NFL. The four linemen — Chicago Bears tackle Bobby Massie, Bears guard Kyle Long, Tennessee Titans guard Chance Warmack and New York Giants center Weston Richburg — also slammed the grades handed out by Pro Football Focus. Massie, Long, Warmack and Richburg were four of about 30 linemen working out at the O-Line Performance Center, owned and operated by former NFL lineman LeCharles Bentley.

The linemen said the grades given by PFF, cited often as a gauge to judge how well a player is performing, are given by people who don't know the nuances of the game. "It's for people who never played a down in the league and don't understand what an offensive lineman does, so how can they grade it?" Massie told Prisco as part of a lengthy round-table discussion. "You can snap back at people, but it's frowned upon."

Warmack said the grades are "annoying," but Long took it a step further, saying the people giving the grades "don't know how to buckle up a helmet."

 

[top dawg]

2 hours ago, Saca312 said:

No, they don't.

All-22 isn't compiled and released until Monday Night or Tuesday morning. They come out with these grades minutes after the game. 

So no, they are not 100% efficient at what they do and they are not the end-all be all of grading. Otherwise, we should trade Star right now, because they say he sucks.

Did they say Star sucked yesterday, or in general, or is that just some gratuitous conjecture on your part?

From what I understand PFF uses NFL Game Rewind and have access to the All-22 right then and there, so I'm not actually sure what you're getting at.

Regardless, they are the premiere grading service used by the NFL. Like I said in my initial post, it's an excellent service for what it does, and of course it's up to people to provide the context. Coaches and execs do it all the time, as do agents and players (and writers and fans if they so choose). 

If you can't appreciate it, or prefer to use it as a tool, that's your choice. 

[top dawg]

NFL teams use PFF, and they strive to do it in the right way. For all of you trying to slam PFF as being useless, inaccurate, or biased, I think that it's more about your lack of understanding. 

Here is an article that explains how complex analytics are and how NFL teams strives to use them as a tool in making determinations regarding player value. 

https://www.si.com/mmqb/2017/06/27/nfl-analytics-what-nfl-teams-use-pff-stats-llc-tendencies-player-tracking-injuries-chip-kelly

[rico6]

18 hours ago, Saca312 said:

Still don't get how PFF comes out with these grades just a few moments after the game's ended without looking at All-22, defensive assignments and playcalls.

Plus, the fact Star's name isn't on there is criminal. He was a huge reason for the defensive line's success.

Irony at it's finest. Wasnt too long ago you idolized PFF and its crap.

[Mol3m4n]

The grade on Cam is fine, in fact it's well deserved. My grudge is against the subjective piece on him below it. 

[top dawg]

37 minutes ago, Mol3m4n said:

The grade on Cam is fine, in fact it's well deserved. My grudge is against the subjective piece on him below it. 

Yeah, those subjective pieces are just that. Sometimes---a lot of times it seems---I think people get the grading mixed up with their other general, more subjective pieces that are made to appeal to the masses. Don't get me wrong, they still hold some value---as much as any other analysts' articles, but they aren't actual grades.

[Saca312]

Oh lord someone just said that "oh you just don't understand PFF" when I'm arguing that many NFL players understand that PFF has flaws, and coaches undoubtedly will prefer film and breakdowns with context over any in-game crap PFF comes with.

And @top dawg, you realize no one gets All-22 film until Monday night or Tuesday, right? It's literally impossible for PFF to have All-22 because that isn't compiled or released until then.

PFF is okay as a starting point. I make threads on it and back up good points. However, it's something you have to look and see if what they say shows up on film. They get it wrong more than you would think.

They don't put scheme into context, otherwise Star wouldn't have that bottom-tier 40 grade on him. Lots more things going on that would take more than an hour after the game to compile with a lot more viewpoints.

It's why plenty of NFL players don't put too much stock into it.

[panthers55]

2 hours ago, top dawg said:

Yeah, those subjective pieces are just that. Sometimes---a lot of times it seems---I think people get the grading mixed up with their other general, more subjective pieces that are made to appeal to the masses. Don't get me wrong, they still hold some value---as much as any other analysts' articles, but they aren't actual grades.

The problem with PFF is that they see the play and formation and decide based on what they see whether the player did the right thing or not. So for example a corner who is supposed to be in man hands off a receiver to a linebacker thinking it is zone on a skinny post. The linebacker doesn't realize the corner dropped off so he doesn't pick him up and the quarterback has an easy pass. PFF will credit the linebacker with the completion and gaff thinking it was zone yet it wasn't his responsibility and the corner was supposed to be in man. But if you didn't know the coverage call you wouldn't know that. This type of thing happens all the time.

 

[JawnyBlaze]

2 hours ago, top dawg said:

NFL teams use PFF, and they strive to do it in the right way. For all of you trying to slam PFF as being useless, inaccurate, or biased, I think that it's more about your lack of understanding. 

Here is an article that explains how complex analytics are and how NFL teams strives to use them as a tool in making determinations regarding player value. 

https://www.si.com/mmqb/2017/06/27/nfl-analytics-what-nfl-teams-use-pff-stats-llc-tendencies-player-tracking-injuries-chip-kelly

From the linked article:

Quote

4. Conversely, the value of the data in those areas is proven in that nearly the entire NFL has subscribed to Stats LLC and/or Pro Football Focus, and some rely on smaller services, like Pro Scout Inc., which is run by 64-year-old former Utah coach Mike Giddings.

Not exactly a glowing endorsement.

Quote

In football, on the other hand, you get anecdotes like this one: There is one team that has a club exec who heads up data collection. He’ll call his head coach into his office and hand the data to him. But the report never makes it to the coach’s desk, only out to the hallway where, between the two offices, there is a trashcan.

Some teams have analytics directors. Others have departments. Some integrate data and make football people responsible for working it into their jobs. Others keep the sides separate, with an over-the-top manager (usually the GM) sorting it out. Some build their own systems. Others have the numbers people there only as window dressing.

One commonality? Most subscribe to services. Cincinnati-based Pro Football Focus now lists 27 teams as clients, and founder Neil Hornsby says, “I’d be surprised if we haven’t got 32 of 32 by next season, if not this season.” Similarly, Stats LLC has 26 teams as subscribers. The reason? It’s a way to become more efficient and guard against missing anything, even if you’re still not sure how to use all the numbers.

Sounds like just a matter of compiling as much raw data as possible, not that it's particularly valuable in and of itself.

Quote

It’s easy to figure out where and why the divide happens. Football lacks the repetitive one-on-one situations that make up a large portion of baseball and basketball, and it’s tougher to figure out what each player’s assignment is without hearing it from a coach. Those assignments are more divergent, too—in basketball, a center’s role on defense can be affected by the opposing point guard’s movements and decisions and the spacing of all the opposing players; in football, a right tackle’s objective doesn’t relate much to what a free safety is deployed to do.

That makes putting values and creating apples-to-apples judgments on players difficult, and the idea of filtering gameday decisions through a strict set of rules problematic. It also makes it challenging for services like PFF and Stats LLC to find the right way to assess players and plays on their own, and generate value for coaches and scouts.

Bingo. 

 

[JawnyBlaze]

2 hours ago, Mol3m4n said:

The grade on Cam is fine, in fact it's well deserved. My grudge is against the subjective piece on him below it. 

Yea, that's what I meant by "no surprises".  I don't even have a problem with the grades I linked.  Doesn't change my opinion of PFF.