Still the same ol' twin towers? I hope not.

[top dawg]

1 hour ago, SOJA said:

I never did really want to draft Kelvin, thought I was proven wrong his rookie year, and definitely thought I was going to be wrong before he tore his ACL in camp. But ever since then, I'm slowly becoming more "correct".

That being said, Kelvin's game has never been to be a precise route runner and I don't know if he physically can ever become one: he's just too big. 

Funchess on the other hand, Funchess was "supposed" to be our route runner but the jury is still out on him. 

Part of the problem with Funchess is when he gets targeted he doesn't play as tall as he is. The other problem is Cam doesn't look his way enough. 

Time will tell but I would not be surprised if the Panthers ended up moving on from both WRs in the future, especially if we don't see an improvement this year. 

 

Yeah, I feel you. I was a little different in that I was very excited to draft KB, but now I'm getting concerned that he may be gradually proving me "incorrect." I mean his route running is not befitting of a first rounder in my opinion. He was drafted mainly based on a lot of upside. I don't care what anyone says, he was never expected to hit his ceiling at just being a big that wins jump balls (hell, Pep might have been able to do that ). Evans looks like a ballerina out there compared to Benjamin. And, again, this speaks to my question earlier in the thread: do you actually pay Benjamin top dollar (even under the tag) if that's all he's got? And let's not talk about his offseason conditioning...

Now one thing that people may overlook---perhaps his saving grace---is that this is essentially Benjamin's third year, and although he's not the youngest kid, he seemed to have a relatively younger mentality in college and upon his arrival in Charlotte. So, what I'm getting at is that he may just be hitting that point of maturation where the light comes on. The speed with which he got into shape, and the workouts with Cam may mean that something is finally clicking. And we all know that it usually takes receivers about three years to really hit their stride. But seeing that poor route running yesterday really has me wondering.

As for Funchess, this is his prove-it time. People say that fans were saying the same thing about him in college in reference to his potential. To me, that's understandable. It's college. But now, in his third year as a pro, he just has to seize his opportunity and prove to people (whether HE believes it or not) that he's more than just a tease. Fair or not, after this season, no one's going to want to hear about him being misused or lack of chemistry with Cam. I mean, it would have to take something obvious and egregious on the coach's and QB's part for Funchess to retain any real support if he doesn't go out and ball this year. He's going to have to show that he belongs in the starting lineup.

14 hours ago, The Huddler said:

Damn.   

 

I wish we drafted a fast WR early this year

Yeah, maybe we'll draft another one---if we're lucky---in 2025.

[pantherclaw]

I don't get you guys. 

Y'all talk about KB like he's a bum. 

1,000 yards/season = bum? 

Greg Olsen must be a bum too. 

KB will never put up gawdy numbers like a megatron. 

1000-1200 is great. 

Another 1000 from Olsen. 

There are 2 receivibg threats that account for 2000 yards. 

Funchess and Shepard come into play.  While I expect both of them to up their game this season, you honesty expect more than 600-700 yards from either?  

What about CMC?

Hell, I haven't even mentioned Samual. 

You guys must expect Cam to be throwing 40-50 passes a game. 

If he's doing that, we're in trouble. 

Find some honest expectations, and stop downplaying the talent we have at the position.

[top dawg]

2 hours ago, pantherclaw said:

I don't get you guys. 

Y'all talk about KB like he's a bum. 

1,000 yards/season = bum? 

Greg Olsen must be a bum too. 

KB will never put up gawdy numbers like a megatron. 

1000-1200 is great. 

Another 1000 from Olsen. 

There are 2 receivibg threats that account for 2000 yards. 

Funchess and Shepard come into play.  While I expect both of them to up their game this season, you honesty expect more than 600-700 yards from either?  

What about CMC?

Hell, I haven't even mentioned Samual. 

You guys must expect Cam to be throwing 40-50 passes a game. 

If he's doing that, we're in trouble. 

Find some honest expectations, and stop downplaying the talent we have at the position.

I'm the preacher on telling people to keep their expectations in perspective regarding gaudy stats for our receivers.

For me, it's more about whether you should pay KB big money when he runs poor routes and has the lowest separation grade in football? Just think of the possibilities if you put a good route runner and separator in his slot. I mean, is his production so impossible to achieve with a cheaper option? Sure he has produced, but he and the rest of the receiving crew left a lot of meat on the bone. It's easy to see drops as lost opportunities, but not so easy to recognize that poor route running results in lost opportunities as well.

With what went down yesterday with all the drops and the lack of separation, it should be easy to see why people want better.

[Saca312]

32 minutes ago, top dawg said:

I'm the preacher on telling people to keep their expectations in perspective regarding gaudy stats for our receivers.

For me, it's more about whether you should pay KB big money when he runs poor routes and has the lowest separation grade in football? Just think of the possibilities if you put a good route runner and separator in his slot. I mean, is his production so impossible to achieve with a cheaper option? Sure he has produced, but he and the rest of the receiving crew left a lot of meat on the bone. It's easy to see drops as lost opportunities, but not so easy to recognize that poor route running results in lost opportunities as well.

With what went down yesterday with all the drops and the lack of separation, it should be easy to see why people want better.

Very good point. People don't realize how much that 5th year option is for wide receivers when all he is right now is a big bodied possession receiver who gets over-targeted. He cannot run routes, he doesn't beat press at all, and half the time he even plays small.

Kelvin Benjamin needs to prove he has not only gotten over his ACL, he needs to prove he has improved to a decent player. Otherwise, we don't need to be paying him big money at all.

[pantherclaw]

43 minutes ago, top dawg said:

I'm the preacher on telling people to keep their expectations in perspective regarding gaudy stats for our receivers.

For me, it's more about whether you should pay KB big money when he runs poor routes and has the lowest separation grade in football? Just think of the possibilities if you put a good route runner and separator in his slot. I mean, is his production so impossible to achieve with a cheaper option? Sure he has produced, but he and the rest of the receiving crew left a lot of meat on the bone. It's easy to see drops as lost opportunities, but not so easy to recognize that poor route running results in lost opportunities as well.

With what went down yesterday with all the drops and the lack of separation, it should be easy to see why people want better.

Truth of the matter is...

KB is a better complimentary receiver. Not a true number one. So until we have one that develops,  or we secure one through FA (HIGHLY UNLIKELY), we have to keep pushing on. 

The good news is most of our receivers are still developing.  We as fans, want everything right now. 

[pantherclaw]

As far as value, KB definitely has value. Worth a Fitz? No. 

But worth more than a Decker.

[Tomcatn]

Truth of the matter is in 2015 and KB was hurt, Cam spread the ball around a lot more and the Panthers were so much more dangerous in the passing game. I hope it plays out this way in 2017 with our new weapons.

[csx]

Not every receiver needs to be a 1300 yd all pro in order to be useful and productive as long as they aren't paid like one. 

1000 yds and 8 tds is always helpful. If he can develop his blocking game then he's a fantastic piece. It took Moose 4 seasons to get to that point and he didn't have the greatest reputation until the later in his career. 

His targets are really not high.

 

[LinvilleGorge]

To put it in perspective, KB was 27th in the NFL last season in targets. Olsen actually had the most targets on the team and he was still only 18th.

 

[csx]

Even if it were true...Blame Shula and Cam if he is targeted too often. Dont blame him.

 

[Proudiddy]

I've always questioned KB and never believed he was a #1, and I've never believed in Funchess, at all...  I wasn't a fan of either in college, but KB has NFL talent.  I don't think Funchess does...

The reasons listed in the article are why I have wanted to pour resources into WR and have been fairly dismissive when presented with KB and Funchess as resources that have already been put into the position.  Since Cam had been here and Smitty hasn't, the only WR who could consistently get open and ran routes worth a poo was Ginn.  We needed more guys to get open.  Period.  Yet, up until this off-season, all we did was add guys who were more of the same.  I hope Shepard, Byrd, Samuel, and CMC are those guys I've been hoping to get all this time for Cam.

[LinvilleGorge]

There's too much obsession about this mythical #1 WR. KB has proven to be a legit starting caliber NFL outside WR. We need another one. This is Funchess' put up or shut up year. And honestly, I don't think he's done anything to earn even that. But, he's gonna get a crack at it regardless. I hope it works out and he shows everyone that he can be a starting caliber NFL outside WR, but if it's not working out, I hope we don't hesitate to make a change. Put someone else in there and give them a shot. Maybe Shepherd? I don't know. 

[CPcavedweller]

22 hours ago, top dawg said:

Bill Voth did tweet something telling, if not disturbing, today:

Put that together with a piece by USA Today's Lucas Ewing about the problems of Kelvin Benjamin and Devin Funchess, and you can see why some concern about the complete makeup of our receiving corp is easily justified.

Ewing rightly notes that in 2016, both Benjamin and Funchess had very concerning problems, which is lack of separation for both, and DF's catch percentage

 

"Benjamin is a big wide receiver. At 6-foot-5 and 245 pounds, he’s by no means the team’s the quickest player. That’s no excuse for his consistent lack of separation, though. Benjamin only managed 1.8 yards of separation on average, which ranked dead last among NFL players with 20 or more receptions in 2016.

"Benjamin’s problem lies mostly in his poor route running. His routes are rudimentary and offer almost no ‘bait’ for the cornerback to take."

 

"Funchess only recorded three drops in 2016, which would account for five percent of his targets. This leaves 56 percent of passes between him and Newton going off the rails somewhere. What also may have contributed to his lack of success is due to the fact that Funchess ranked third-to-last in separation, as well."

 

Now you might say that this is no newsflash, and you'd be right. But perhaps the biggest problem is that the same lack of separation issues have showed up at the joint practice. I encourage you to view the sample videos that Ewing uses to support his assertion.

http://pantherswire.usatoday.com/2017/08/17/why-panthers-wrs-kelvin-benjamin-and-devin-funchess-struggled-in-2016/

Of course Funchess and Cam are likely not able to work on their chemistry issues at this point while Cam is on limited duty, but hopefully they're at least discussing the issues and getting on the same page from a mental standpoint. Cam can't afford to force the ball to Benjamin who apparently needs to continue to refine his route running. I'm about sick of the notion that he doesn't have to run great routes because of his size. I've never ever seen him do what Mike Evans did in the video. It's kind of sobering really.

Now, don't get me wrong, I believe that the talent is there with both. Moreover, I believe that a dynamic playmaker in the slot (hopefully Curtis Samuel) may help out somewhat with opening it up for the others, but it's obviously not all sunshine and rainbows in my mind. If these problems aren't adequately addressed---and quickly---then our passing offense will be stuttering out of the gate and again be limited and somewhat unfulfilling for another season. 

And don't even get me started about Damiere Byrd dropping at least three balls today. Or the usually sure-handed Brenton Bersin bobbling a ball into an interception. Our wide receiving corps may need a shot in the arm (yeah, outside help), or at least a kick in the ass. 

Play calling matters as well. If we can force defenses to play zone rather than man up that would help a lot. If they want to double Benjamin while Samuel, Funchess, Olsen, and CMC get one on one's, go for it. 

[RetiredCollegeCoach]

37 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

There's too much obsession about this mythical #1 WR. KB has proven to be a legit starting caliber NFL outside WR. We need another one. This is Funchess' put up or shut up year. And honestly, I don't think he's done anything to earn even that. But, he's gonna get a crack at it regardless. I hope it works out and he shows everyone that he can be a starting caliber NFL outside WR, but if it's not working out, I hope we don't hesitate to make a change. Put someone else in there and give them a shot. Maybe Shepherd? I don't know. 

Great post. People get hung up on this savior myth with WRs. 

Guys, Julio plays for another team - get over it. We've got a great rotation when you consider some of the depth guys - Shep, Byrd, and the Wofford Weapon - and then we'll hopefully be overlaying some interesting looks involving CMC and Samuel.