Was DG that great?

[heel31ok]

3 minutes ago, grimesgoat said:

Until you grasp a simple understanding of what a rollover is, I can't take you seriously.  Since lil Billy's lemonade stand was over your head, I'm going to try to dumb it down even more.  Its ok if math isn't your thing - the numbers below are nice and round and meant to illustrate.  They are not actual, but might be fairly similar to the real world. But you do have to understand we are not talking about the gain in cap room from paying a player one year and not having to pay him the next.  We are talking about a rollover, which is a different concept entirely.

Scenario 1.  Norman signs the franchise tag (this is your ideal scenario):

Norman Salary: 14 mil.

All other Panthers Salary: 151 mil.

Total Panthers Salary 165 mil.

2016 League Salary Cap 170 mil.

Excess Panther cap: 5 mil. (note - if this is not spent on other free agents it is rolled over into next years Panthers cap.  That's why its called a rollover).

2017 League Salary Cap: increases to 180 mil.

2017 Panthers Cap:185 mil (the league cap + the rollover). 

2017 Panthers Salary prior to Free Agency: 151 mil (everyone makes the same and norman is gone)

2017 room to spend: 34 mil (panther cap minus existing salaries)

 

 

Scenario 2: Norman does not sign the franchise tag and is released (this is what happened):

Norman Salary: 0 mil

All Other Panthers Salary: 151 mil

Total Panthers Salary: 151 mil

League Salary Cap: 170 mil

Excess Panther Cap: 19 mil (hey the rollover is bigger without Norman).

2017 League Salary Cap: increases to 180 mil

2017 Panthers Cap: 199 mil (league cap + rollover).  (yay, we have more money to spend).

2017 Panthers Salary prior to Free Agency: 151 mil (same as above since norman still gone)

2017 room to spend: 48 mil. (yay - we have more money for more guys).

 

Please as questions as appropriate...

34 mil and Norman sounds like a great deal...we'd be looking at a seahawks like secondary instead of another rebuilding year...

[grimesgoat]

1 hour ago, heel31ok said:

he was teaching Norman a lesson...it was like smitty  all over again and i think that's what doomed him...as long as we won he was safe...

We'll have to agree to disagree on this.  To me, Gettleman was all business.  It made sense from a business standpoint to let these guys go.  He did not have an emotional attachment to these guys like the fans did.  To me, he was just weighing the pros and cons and making a business decision.  Sometimes these decisions prove incorrect in hindsight, but that's the nature of the game.

For example - we tagged Hardy.  Subsequently Hardy fugged up and we got nothing out of him.  In hindsight, that cost us a lot of cap for no return.  Nature of the beast.

[grimesgoat]

7 minutes ago, heel31ok said:

34 mil and Norman sounds like a great deal...we'd be looking at a seahawks like secondary instead of another rebuilding year...

We wouldn't have 34 mil and norman in 2017.  We'd have 34 mil.  Norman is only tagged for 1 year.  The numbers are not real anyway. The only number that matters is the rollover, 14 mil.

 

[heel31ok]

Just now, grimesgoat said:

We'll have to agree to disagree on this.  To me, Gettleman was all business.  It made sense from a business standpoint to let these guys go.  He did not have an emotional attachment to these guys like the fans did.  To me, he was just weighing the pros and cons and making a business decision.  Sometimes these decisions prove incorrect in hindsight, but that's the nature of the game.

For example - we tagged Hardy.  Subsequently Hardy fugged up and we got nothing out of him.  In hindsight, that cost us a lot of cap for no return.  Nature of the beast.

yeah he was supposed to be and if he kept it all business I may give him some margin for error. I think he hid behind that "all business". It was personal against Smitty but the final proof was the Norman situation where he forced himself into panic drafting 3 corners...it is obvious he was not prepared for that scenario and his rash decision to let Norman walk forced him into it... had it been all business he would have had a rational backup plan...One phone call to Norman would have changed our world and his...

[uncfan888]

32 minutes ago, *FreeFua* said:

lol yeah he sure showed Norman.

Releasing him off a one year deal to go ahead and sign a mega long term deal!

I wish Gettleman would come teach me a lesson 

What lesson are you guys talking about? He knew he'd get a mega deal somewhere. He just wanted more than Gettleman wanted to give here. That's not a lesson.. It's business 

[uncfan888]

10 minutes ago, grimesgoat said:

We wouldn't have 34 mil and norman in 2017.  We'd have 34 mil.  Norman is only tagged for 1 year.  The numbers are not real anyway. The only number that matters is the rollover, 14 mil.

 

Ignore him. He lives in a fantasy world where every player can be retained and money doesn't exist. Unfortunately, hurney lives in the same world. RIP our cap space 

[heel31ok]

3 minutes ago, grimesgoat said:

We wouldn't have 34 mil and norman in 2017.  We'd have 34 mil.  Norman is only tagged for 1 year.  The numbers are not real anyway. The only number that matters is the rollover, 14 mil.

 

still the point was having Norman would be worth it...we didn't have him and we took a step back and we are still a step back...the collateral damage that would have been avoided would have been worth it...Bene would still be here...as the falcon fiasco would have never happened...our secondary would have been a monster ...and other positions could have been addressed instead of a wasted threefer at CB...worth it

[grimesgoat]

3 minutes ago, heel31ok said:

yeah he was supposed to be and if he kept it all business I may give him some margin for error. I think he hid behind that "all business". It was personal against Smitty but the final proof was the Norman situation where he forced himself into panic drafting 3 corners...it is obvious he was not prepared for that scenario and his rash decision to let Norman walk forced him into it... had it been all business he would have had a rational backup plan...One phone call to Norman would have changed our world and his...

I think he undervalued Norman's contribution to the defense.  I believe he thought Norman benefitted from a solid pass rush and was not worth that kind of money.  Had Ealy been as good as he was in the Super Bowl and had Bene and Boykin been decent, he would have looked like a genius.  Adding 2 young studs in the draft to learn behind these guys was all he needed.  But for one reason or another, everything fell apart.  Ealy was a non-factor, Bene was terrible, Boykin was hurt and cut, and the draftees were not ready to hold down the fort without any semblance of a pass rush.  That's why Bene was released mid-season and Ealy was shipped out.  Again, hindsight is 20/20.

[heel31ok]

4 minutes ago, uncfan888 said:

What lesson are you guys talking about? He knew he'd get a mega deal somewhere. He just wanted more than Gettleman wanted to give here. That's not a lesson.. It's business 

he said he would have come back... that's the reality...yeah it became just business when Gman screwed up...the lesson was that Gman wanted to show him how to play hard ball and it worked instead of securing one of the best secondarys in the NFL Gman tricked himself into a panic threefer draft at CB...that's bad business...

[heel31ok]

10 minutes ago, uncfan888 said:

Ignore him. He lives in a fantasy world where every player can be retained and money doesn't exist. Unfortunately, hurney lives in the same world. RIP our cap space 

lol... I live in a world where Gman should be fired...oh wait...

[heel31ok]

14 minutes ago, grimesgoat said:

I think he undervalued Norman's contribution to the defense.  I believe he thought Norman benefitted from a solid pass rush and was not worth that kind of money.  Had Ealy been as good as he was in the Super Bowl and had Bene and Boykin been decent, he would have looked like a genius.  Adding 2 young studs in the draft to learn behind these guys was all he needed.  But for one reason or another, everything fell apart.  Ealy was a non-factor, Bene was terrible, Boykin was hurt and cut, and the draftees were not ready to hold down the fort without any semblance of a pass rush.  That's why Bene was released mid-season and Ealy was shipped out.  Again, hindsight is 20/20.

we were so close as i think Bene was the one who benefited from Normans presence and with Bradberry coming on, this secondary was on the verge...we were that close, and that's what makes me say it was worth it to pay Norman.. I am sure he would have taken less , he wanted to stay a Panther and it would have been win/win...

[Cpt slay a ho]

Gettleman signed Brandon Boykin prior to releasing Norman.  He already had Benewike, which I believe everyone liked, so I believe Gman thought he had some flexibility.  I don't think Gman wanted to release Norman - that's why he gave him the tag.  But the difference between what Norman wanted and what Gman felt a zone corner should be paid was too much.  When reports started coming out that Norman might hold out, Gman was done with him and he was released.  He then drafted 2 cbs early, and believed these 4 could hold down the fort.
From a business standpoint releasing Norman gave him an extra 12-14 mil plus a 3rd round pick.  Much of the 12-14 would be rolled over to target higher priced free agents and extend core players.  On paper, it appeared he was coming out way ahead. 
Unfortunately, as we know, Boykin and Bene were not up to the task.  Our pass rush was lacking early in the season leaving our secondary extremely vulnerable.  Neither "vet" lasted the season. 
 
 
 

Boykin was seen more as a slot guy since we did not have very good cb slot play in 2015. Even then he was signed pretty late in the fa process, Bene was coming off a major injury. Dg had the ultimate flexibility and leverage, even if Norman threatened to sit out he'd only be hurting himself financially, but when's the last time a player held out for a significant time? Kam Chancellor?. I can only assume he used the tag only to buy more time to negotiate, but he never had a worst case scenario plan effectively in place IMO.


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[heel31ok]

2 minutes ago, Cpt slay a ho said:

Boykin was seen more as a slot guy since we did not have very good cb slot play in 2015. Even then he was signed pretty late in the fa process, Bene was coming off a major injury. Dg had the ultimate flexibility and leverage, even if Norman threatened to sit out he'd only be hurting himself financially, but when's the last time a player held out for a significant time? Kam Chancellor?. I can only assume he used the tag only to buy more time to negotiate, but he never had a worst case scenario plan effectively in place IMO.


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that 's it right there...

[Cpt slay a ho]

Some of you posters are just moronic, over the course of dg's term I disagreed heavily when he released 3 players, smith, Williams, and Norman. So the notion that we wanted him to keep everyone is absurd, the handling of 2 out of 3 above players was unacceptable from a franchise standpoint and business/football standpoint


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