Best Case/Worst Case

[L-TownCat]

2 hours ago, Mother Grabber said:

but we don't know why a call was made, only that you predicted it and the results of that singular play. you don't know what personnel situations or long term game planning is involved, just reacting to a singular event in a long series. game planning for an entire game is not always about the result if a single play or part of a play.

I agree with that.  Don't think I could do any better in that regard.  Those instances, the snapshots in a game where it's 3rd and long or 2nd and long and the defense knows we have to get a chunk play and Coach dials up a seven step drop with Remmers at LT and a center no ones ever heard of.  All this while 3 receivers run go routes or double moves.  This is where I have the biggest concerns.

[panthers55]

3 hours ago, Porn Shop Clerk said:

Then why does he keep calling pass plays that take 10 seconds to develop?

 

He let's Cam go with the play or change it based on the defense. He counts on Cam to recognize what is going on and audible to an alternative play or to recognize the hot read and find the mismatch. So if all the routes are long ones, where is the problem?

[panthers55]

16 minutes ago, Promethean Forerunner said:

Bullpoo. Look, I get that you're either a relative of Shula or sucking his vienna sausage but you're laughable in his defense. Shula does what doesn't work. Where the fug have you been? Honest question. I mean, you can only cite such a claim when he runs up the gut for no gain or predictable draw plays that go for -2 yards or long developing pass plays that result in sacks or hits because the defense sends the house, etc.

As always, your persistence to defend Shula astonishe

i wasn't defending anyone just having a football discussion about the way the offense works here. This is Cam's offense and is built around him. Unlike Chud, Shula gives Cam total freedom to audibilize and change the plays based on what he sees when he comes to the line. He tasks Cam to take the general play concept and make adjustments in the routes, running back protections, and even changing the play to fit the down and distance and find the mismatches in the defense. On blitzes find the automatic hot reads or dump it to the safety valve. That is all pretty much common knowledge. My point all along is that playcalling isn't the responsibly of Shula alone but a combination of Shula, Dorsey, and Cam working together. You are free to blame whoever you want but that is not defending Shula as much as clarifying my understanding of the offense. If you have a different understanding then I wish you would state that. The juvenile personal attacks have no place on this forum and are best relegated to the smack forum for people who like that sort of thing.

[panthers55]

24 minutes ago, Promethean Forerunner said:

No, you are defending Shula. No matter how many times you can state that this offense lacked weapons and blocking, and that this offense was a joint effort with Cam and Dorsey, the fact remains he lacks creativity, he can't adjust and makes horrible decisions. It took Shula time for him to actually give Cam freedom and to tailor the game to his strengths. Is he worthy of praise just because he finally did his job? Cam is a franchise QB, not a game manager.

This is the same offense that took a step back... twice. The limitations and hindrances hang on the guy with the headset and clipboard. Not the QB and his assistant. If something isn't working, then you move on. You don't draw up more of the same in hopes you get a miracle.

So it took time for Shula to teach Cam enough about the offense to master it given that under Chud he really didn't get to do much but run the play called and there was no emphasis on understanding the defense and audibilizing given I heard that Chud honestly thought Cam wasn't able to read defenses given the simple offense he played in college and Chuds emphasis on touting himself to land a head coaching job.  Imagine Shula keeping it simple and expanding and adapting the playbook only  as Cam developed and grew in his understanding of the game. Wow what a crappy OC to increase the complexity and freedom to audiblize as Cam demonstrated he could handle it. Given the initial estimates with some pundits opining it might take Cam 2 years to even become a starter given his lack of experience playing in a pro style offense, Shula really screwed up helping Cam make the probowl as a rookie. Oh thats right Chud and Cam get all the credit Shula did nothing. Just.like Cam has never had the proper weapons to really excel but saying the same thing about Shula is false and making excuses. Especially when he and Cam took the worse receiver group in the NFL and had the number 1 offense. That right though it was all Cam and Shula did nothing. On the other hand when we had the 17th ranked offense in 2016 it was all Shula faults and Cam was blameless. Typical huddle logic there.

[DaveThePanther2008]

13 hours ago, Mother Grabber said:

my biggest worry is that the Shula hate will blow past 11 and straight to 12 if they don't work right away.

Boggles me how many people on here think they know more about being an OC than someone who has spent his entire professional life around the game.  It's unreal how much poo that guy gets from results oriented fans who have next to zero data on why decisions are made.

Shula is a terrible Offensive Coordinator.  TERRIBLE.  When things go well he is ok.  But as soon as the plays that worked before don't work.   He can't adjust.  Even in 2015 after we built huge leads we had to hold on. 

Go back and look at 2015.  How many games did we build a lead and then the other team came back?  Too many. Defense had a play in it too but if we keep scoring points, its game over.  I don't need to be skilled at the Xs and Os to see this.   

My issue is that we have two (hopefully) budding stars in CMC and Samuel.   And god forbid we don't do well right away.  I can visualize him going back to the three yards and a cloud of dust mentality.   There are a couple OCs out there that would love to get their hands on our talent.  And do million times better.

Finally, this is a forum and if 100% knowledge of the playbook is required than Igo might as well shut it down.  Most of the comments on here are OPINIONS.   Cause you don't agree with my opinion, doesn't mean I am spewing POO.

Thanks for playin....

[shaqattaq]

17 hours ago, electro's horse said:

it was a show too you filthy casuals

you call me a filthy casual again and i swear by my pretty floral bonnet i will end you

[panthers55]

6 hours ago, DaveThePanther2008 said:

Shula is a terrible Offensive Coordinator.  TERRIBLE.  When things go well he is ok.  But as soon as the plays that worked before don't work.   He can't adjust.  Even in 2015 after we built huge leads we had to hold on. 

Go back and look at 2015.  How many games did we build a lead and then the other team came back?  Too many. Defense had a play in it too but if we keep scoring points, its game over.  I don't need to be skilled at the Xs and Os to see this.   

My issue is that we have two (hopefully) budding stars in CMC and Samuel.   And god forbid we don't do well right away.  I can visualize him going back to the three yards and a cloud of dust mentality.   There are a couple OCs out there that would love to get their hands on our talent.  And do million times better.

Finally, this is a forum and if 100% knowledge of the playbook is required than Igo might as well shut it down.  Most of the comments on here are OPINIONS.   Cause you don't agree with my opinion, doesn't mean I am spewing POO.

Thanks for playin....

Opinions criticizing someone with few actual facts to back them up are poo. Just like for example, someone telling you that you suck based on what you post here without knowing anything else about you is poo as well. It could be true or totally skewed. Sure it is based on something but may not accurately reflect the total situation. So have at it, it is your right. But credibility usually comes from measured responses not biased ones which don't change as the information does.

[DaveThePanther2008]

1 hour ago, panthers55 said:

Opinions criticizing someone with few actual facts to back them up are poo. Just like for example, someone telling you that you suck based on what you post here without knowing anything else about you is poo as well. It could be true or totally skewed. Sure it is based on something but may not accurately reflect the total situation. So have at it, it is your right. But credibility usually comes from measured responses not biased ones which don't change as the information does.

Simple question for everyone. How many times did you ask yourself during a Panther game.  WTF was that?  If you didn't than either you fully love Shula or you were watching the wrong game.

I am usually the last one to criticize our coordinators but I think we are blowing it with Shula, plain and simple.

[panthers55]

4 hours ago, DaveThePanther2008 said:

Simple question for everyone. How many times did you ask yourself during a Panther game.  WTF was that?  If you didn't than either you fully love Shula or you were watching the wrong game.

I am usually the last one to criticize our coordinators but I think we are blowing it with Shula, plain and simple.

I have never watched a game where I didn't have thoughts like that at some point or the other. Who has ever called a perfect game. Look at the Superbowl last year. Did you have those thoughts during the first half watching New England's offense and then again watching Atlanta in the second half? If that is your criteria then I guess both those offensive coordinators suck right?

[panthers55]

4 hours ago, DaveThePanther2008 said:

Simple question for everyone. How many times did you ask yourself during a Panther game.  WTF was that?  If you didn't than either you fully love Shula or you were watching the wrong game.

I am usually the last one to criticize our coordinators but I think we are blowing it with Shula, plain and simple.

You have done nothing but criticize Shula for 4 years including in 2015 when we had the number 1 offense saying Cam was doing it in spite of Shula.

[DaveThePanther2008]

14 hours ago, panthers55 said:

You have done nothing but criticize Shula for 4 years including in 2015 when we had the number 1 offense saying Cam was doing it in spite of Shula.

There is where you are wrong.  When he took over for Chudz I thought this will work.  He'll take what worked and improve on it.  That was the idea.  2013 got us in the playoffs so no judgment but the first thing I notice was how he sucked at adjustments.  2014 - I thought he needed to go, management didn't.  2015 I thought he did OK and looked for 2016 to improve. Injuries happen but "Mr. I got no Imagination" just moved along with the same stuff.  NO adjustment for backup players.   Blame Cam and others for performance.  Maybe, but a Pee Wee league could defend the Panthers offense.

I have said all along Shula sucks at adjusting, when teams make adjustments to what we were doing he has no rebuttal.  Just like 2016 where we lost by 3 or less in 6 games.  2015 we squeaked the out  a few on the positive side.

You like (love) Shula.  Me and many others don't.   I would rather have Chudz back.  Shula lacked imagination in TB and lacks it here.  

Honestly, I would love to see what Dan Henning could have done with Cam.   There a ton of coordinators that would do far better with Cam than Shula.  Carolina is wasting a golden opportunity with Cam with a mediocre, at best, offensive coordinator.

 

[DaveThePanther2008]

14 hours ago, panthers55 said:

I have never watched a game where I didn't have thoughts like that at some point or the other. Who has ever called a perfect game. Look at the Superbowl last year. Did you have those thoughts during the first half watching New England's offense and then again watching Atlanta in the second half? If that is your criteria then I guess both those offensive coordinators suck right?

True statement. No one ever calls a perfect game.  To me a perfect game is every drive you score.

Shula has, by far, more head scratching calls in 1 quarter than most OCs do in a game.

[panthers55]

11 hours ago, DaveThePanther2008 said:

There is where you are wrong.  When he took over for Chudz I thought this will work.  He'll take what worked and improve on it.  That was the idea.  2013 got us in the playoffs so no judgment but the first thing I notice was how he sucked at adjustments.  2014 - I thought he needed to go, management didn't.  2015 I thought he did OK and looked for 2016 to improve. Injuries happen but "Mr. I got no Imagination" just moved along with the same stuff.  NO adjustment for backup players.   Blame Cam and others for performance.  Maybe, but a Pee Wee league could defend the Panthers offense.

I have said all along Shula sucks at adjusting, when teams make adjustments to what we were doing he has no rebuttal.  Just like 2016 where we lost by 3 or less in 6 games.  2015 we squeaked the out  a few on the positive side.

You like (love) Shula.  Me and many others don't.   I would rather have Chudz back.  Shula lacked imagination in TB and lacks it here.  

Honestly, I would love to see what Dan Henning could have done with Cam.   There a ton of coordinators that would do far better with Cam than Shula.  Carolina is wasting a golden opportunity with Cam with a mediocre, at best, offensive coordinator.

 

So you thought he needed to go in 2014 after we went 12-4 in 2013 and slid back because Cam was hurt all year, we lost Gross and replaced him with Byron Bell? We did okay in 2015 but would improve in 2016? That is hardly a fair assessment of an OC who had the worse talent at receiver in the NFL and developed the most complex running game in the league finishing at number 1 in points. Most reasonable folks felt that we might regress in 2016 particularly if the defense was worse. Of course only a few folks like myself warned about how bad the defense would be with rookie corners and Jag safeties give. The only that was decent we moved out of position to strong safety.  You see what happens but ascribe to the wrong causes. You can't make in game adjustments when you have different guys on the line playing each week. When you have one player on the offensive line who is playing the same position each week you aren't going to develop chemistry. So Shula makes a great gameplay going in making the most of what he has. The other team adjusts but again we can't or don't. Why? Because we don't have the veteran leadership when Kalil goes down, Kueckly goes down, and our receivers are still not very good?

And you think you are objective? What a joke.

Do I like him? Compared to Chud and Henning and Davidson, yeah I do but honestly the bar is pretty low and we really haven't had any great ones here. Do I think we could do better? Likely. But until we replace him I am going to support him from unwarranted attacks from biased fans with an ax to grind like you. Just like I defended Rivera and Cam. And after rightly bashing Gettleman for the disaster he created last year, I am back in his corner after he came to his senses and did a great job this offseason.

[DaveThePanther2008]

16 hours ago, panthers55 said:

So you thought he needed to go in 2014 after we went 12-4 in 2013 and slid back because Cam was hurt all year, we lost Gross and replaced him with Byron Bell? We did okay in 2015 but would improve in 2016? That is hardly a fair assessment of an OC who had the worse talent at receiver in the NFL and developed the most complex running game in the league finishing at number 1 in points. Most reasonable folks felt that we might regress in 2016 particularly if the defense was worse. Of course only a few folks like myself warned about how bad the defense would be with rookie corners and Jag safeties give. The only that was decent we moved out of position to strong safety.  You see what happens but ascribe to the wrong causes. You can't make in game adjustments when you have different guys on the line playing each week. When you have one player on the offensive line who is playing the same position each week you aren't going to develop chemistry. So Shula makes a great gameplay going in making the most of what he has. The other team adjusts but again we can't or don't. Why? Because we don't have the veteran leadership when Kalil goes down, Kueckly goes down, and our receivers are still not very good?

And you think you are objective? What a joke.

Do I like him? Compared to Chud and Henning and Davidson, yeah I do but honestly the bar is pretty low and we really haven't had any great ones here. Do I think we could do better? Likely. But until we replace him I am going to support him from unwarranted attacks from biased fans with an ax to grind like you. Just like I defended Rivera and Cam. And after rightly bashing Gettleman for the disaster he created last year, I am back in his corner after he came to his senses and did a great job this offseason.

You are a Shula apologist and it is what it is.

2013 we were 12-4, 2014 we were 7-8-1. 

  Davidson yes, Chudz no and hell no on Henning.  Dan Henning won a Super Bowl and was the OC for a very good Washington offense.  Henning is the only reason we came back on New England in SB38. He made in games adjustments and almost beat NE.  If we had made it to OT.  We would have won.  Henning was an offensive genius.  If you would take Shula over Henning.  You don't know Dan Henning.