Coaching is why Jarrett shows bust

[SMACKDAB]

Given you always mention slurping and sucking alot seems it is on your mind alot. I guess that is just how you roll.

When it's on your chin, and you keep spewing the same ole, same ole ass kissin poo.....you are right......That is how I roll.

Too heavy for ya? Need some relief? Quit slurping...........

[Gman was right]

Smith's 2007 season proves that he is nothing without Jake. Look at this year, if Smith made Jake then he would have batted down a few of those potential interceptions instead of tip one and stand there at Atlanta and one during Philly. You can't say that Smith would be an all-pro. He is alot like Devin Hester. Both are converted returners. Is Hester an all-pro? Greatest at one position doesn't assure greatest at another.

Moose was a pro-bowler in 1999 but dropped off in 2000 and 2001. So his pro bowl appearance in 1999 had no bearing on 2004. JUst like Delhomme being an All-pro in 2005 has no bearing on his performance in 2009.

If you beyond quantity stats to quality stats you will see for example in 1999 he had 1253 yards for a 13.1 average. Then his production drops off to roughly 11.6 yards per reception in 2000 and 2001. He had over 100 catches in 2000 but really we had no one else. He gets injured in 2001 and things drop off dramatically. Then Fox gets here with his vertical passing attack and his yards per reception picks up to 13.1 followed by 2 years of 15 yards plus. His total catches dropped off somewhat as Smith is developed under Fox.

Moose goes to Chicago in 2005 and his production drops off to 11.7 and then recovers to 14.3, 14.2 and his receptions slowly fall because he is supposedly washed up. He comes to Carolina and has an excellent year with 65 catches (25 more than he had in Chicago in 2007) with almost 1000 yards and a yards per catch of 14.2. Coincidence? Not likely.

Obviously only one of us knows the facts and it isn't you.

Smith was playing with 4 different QBs in 2007 and still had over a 1000 yards. We also had no other viable receivers and no running game whatsoever. That PROVES Smith is great no matter who is at QB. Smith would have been an all pro receiver no matter who coached him. Jake has said himself numerous times that Smith makes him look better than he really is. Go look up Jakes record when Smith is not in the lineup. Its not very good! Smith made jake and he made Fox thats not even debateable.

As for Moose, he playing with a rookie QB in 2001. Most receivers would struggle under that circumstane. He was also playing in Chicago where they had no QBs on the roster in 2005 -2007. His best overall years were with Siefert and Beurlein. I guess you're going to tell me that Siefert and Beurlein made him? NO, he was a great receiver no matter who was at QB or the HC. Fox was lucky enough to inherit those two. He had absolutely no hand whatsoever in their development.

[panthers55]

When it's on your chin, and you keep spewing the same ole, same ole ass kissin poo.....you are right......That is how I roll.

Too heavy for ya? Need some relief? Quit slurping...........

And you are same guy whining about personal attacks a day ago.

I guess you are now showing your true colors. Thanks for the flashback to junior high.

[panthers55]

Smith was playing with 4 different QBs in 2007 and still had over a 1000 yards. We also had no other viable receivers and no running game whatsoever. That PROVES Smith is great no matter who is at QB. Smith would have been an all pro receiver no matter who coached him. Jake has said himself numerous times that Smith makes him look better than he really is. Go look up Jakes record when Smith is not in the lineup. Its not very good! Smith made jake and he made Fox thats not even debateable.

As for Moose, he playing with a rookie QB in 2001 and was playing in Chicago where they had no QBs on the roster in 2005 -2007. His best overall years were with Siefert and Beurlein. I guess you're going to tell me that Siefert and Beurlein made him? NO, he was a great receiver no matter who was at QB or the HC. Fox was lucky enough to inherit those two. He had absolutely no hand whatsoever in their development.

Smith had almost 300 of those yards and 4 of his 7 TDS in the first 2 1/2 games with Jake. The rest of the season he had 700 yards in 13 games and 4 TDs. So no he had a terrible 2007 without Jake. And no Jake doesn't say that Smith makes him look better than he is, he says that they are a team and each one makes the other better. And saying that not having a second receiver makes a player worse is counter to the fact that when Smitty went down in 2004, Moose ended up with 1400 yards and a probowl appearance with 15 yards per catch. And when Smitty was out only real option in 2005 he won the triple crown. In 2007 with Jake he was on target for a career year. With out him his numbers were down all around to the lowest since his injury year of 2004. Jake comes back in 2008 and suddenly his yards per reception lead the league at 18.2 YPC and he is at 1421 on only 78 catches.

As for Moose I already detailed his success. As for no quarterbacks, Chicago had Orton who is 4-0 with Denver and is rated number 7th in the league this year. His failure in Chicago and Moose's lower production were due to Chicago's coaching and Grossman. Orton's success in Denver is due his ability as well as to coaching. Just like in Carolina, Mooses' success here is due to his ability as well as coaching.

You can inherit all kind of players but it doesn't mean they will succeed. You need talent as well as a system to maximize their success. Fox has a good system for both Moose and Smith to succeed.

[Gman was right]

Smith had almost 300 of those yards and 4 of his 7 TDS in the first 2 1/2 games with Jake. The rest of the season he had 700 yards in 13 games and 4 TDs. So no he had a terrible 2007 without Jake. And no Jake doesn't say that Smith makes him look better than he is, he says that they are a team and each one makes the other better. And saying that not having a second receiver makes a player worse in counter to the fact that when Smitty went down in 2004, Moose ended up with 1400 yards and a probowl appearance with 15 yards per catch. In 2007 with Jake he was on target for a career year. With out him his numbers were down all around to the lowest since his injury year of 2004. Jake comes back in 2008 and suddenly his yards per reception lead the league at 18.2 YPC and he is at 1421 on only 78 catches.

As for Moose I already detailed his success. As for no quarterbacks, I believe they had Orten who is 4-0 with Denver and is rated number 7th in the league this year. His failure in Chicago and Moose's lower production were due to Chicago's coaching. Orton's success in Denver is due his ability as well as to coaching. Just like in Carolina, Mooses' success here is due to his ability as well as coaching.

You can inherit all kind of players but it doesn't mean they will succeed. You need talent as well as a system to maximize their success. Fox has a good system for both Moose and Smith to succeed.

Nooooo not true at all. Jake has said in TV and radio interviews nuemrous times " Smitty often makes me look better than I am. All I do is throw the ball up and try to give him a chance". Those were his exact quotes. Like I said, go look at Jakes record when Smith is not in the lineup and you will see its not very good! Moose had a #2 receiver in 2004. It was colbert who had almost 800 yards and 4 Tds. He also had Ricky Proehl who was as reliable as they come. Jakes first three games in 07 were against three teams with a losing record. Two of them were against the 3-13 rams and the 4-12 falcons. There is no way you can tell me he was on pace to have a career year based on those games.

Moose had one good season under Jake/Fox. But he was a pro bowler long before Jake and Fox were here. Ortan was a rookie in 2005 and was benched in favor of a worse QB in Grossman when Ortan was struggling. They had the receivers in Moose and Berrian. They had no QBs.

Again, Fox inherited two pro bowl receivers! Its not even up for discussion. When Fox is fired at the end of the season the new coach will have that same luxury that Fox had.

[SMACKDAB]

And you are same guy whining about personal attacks a day ago.

I guess you are now showing your true colors. Thanks for the flashback to junior high.

Wasn't whining, just pointing out what you do when stuff doesn't go your way.

Have fun.

[SMACKDAB]

Smith had almost 300 of those yards and 4 of his 7 TDS in the first 2 1/2 games with Jake. The rest of the season he had 700 yards in 13 games and 4 TDs. So no he had a terrible 2007 without Jake.

You who claims to know so much about football use this as a valid argument????

Ok....You still keep proving how little you know, and how much you pretend to know.

Anybody that would make a statement like that, and believe it is just plain, outright stupid. Smitty doesn't need Jake to be what he is.

You....are embarrassingly mistaken.

[panthers55]

Nooooo not true at all. Jake has said in TV and radio interviews nuemrous times " Smitty often makes me look better than I am. All I do is throw the ball up and try to give him a chance". Those were his exact quotes. Like I said, go look at Jakes record when Smith is not in the lineup and you will see its not very good! Moose had a #2 receiver in 2004. It was colbert who had almost 800 yards and 4 Tds. He also had Ricky Proehl who was as reliable as they come. Jakes first three games in 07 were against three teams with a losing record. Two of them were against the 3-13 rams and the 4-12 falcons. There is no way you can tell me he was on pace to have a career year based on those games.

Moose had one good season under Jake/Fox. But he was a pro bowler long before Jake and Fox were here. Ortan was a rookie in 2005 and was benched in favor of a worse QB in Grossman when Ortan was struggling. They had the receivers in Moose and Berrian. They had no QBs.

Again, Fox inherited two pro bowl receivers! Its not even up for discussion. When Fox is fired at the end of the season the new coach will have that same luxury that Fox had.

I haven't heard that Jake has said that but actually it wouldn't surprise me. Jake always tries to give everyone else the credit when they succeed while he shoulders all the blame when they fail. So I could see him giving Smith all the credit. Another reason why Smith and he are so close and they feed off each other.

Moose had more than one good season under Fox as his yards per catch increased from 2002 through 2004 until he was traded. His total yards were up and down as Smith emerged but as is common knowledge, total yards are not as good an indicator of success as yards per catch.

And no fox didn't inherit 2 probowl receivers. He inherited one probowl receiver who was 3 years removed from that kind of success and a pro bowl returner who had a total of 10 receptions in his career before Fox arrived. And it took Smith 4 years to become a pro-bowl receiver.

Will the next coach feel grateful that he is inheriting a pro-bowl quarterback in Delhomme. That is the same kind of analogy with Moose.

As for Orton and Grossman, who knows what was going on there at quarterback. Seems the results in Denver would say Orton was the better guy and as I said it takes ability coupled with a system that maximizes that success.

[CRA]

Smith's 2007 season proves that he is nothing without Jake. Look at this year, if Smith made Jake then he would have batted down a few of those potential interceptions instead of tip one and stand there at Atlanta and one during Philly. You can't say that Smith would be an all-pro. He is alot like Devin Hester. Both are converted returners. Is Hester an all-pro? Greatest at one position doesn't assure greatest at another.

.

look at how Smitty played when Matt Moore was finally given the starts.....a noticeable difference than when two horrific options in Vinny and Carr were on the field. All Smitty needs is an average QB to be an elite WR. Carr and Vinny couldn't make plays. The 07 season proved an average QB is all Smitty needs.

[panthers55]

You who claims to know so much about football use this as a valid argument????

Ok....You still keep proving how little you know, and how much you pretend to know.

Anybody that would make a statement like that, and believe it is just plain, outright stupid. Smitty doesn't need Jake to be what he is.

You....are embarrassingly mistaken.

Where am I wrong? Those are the facts.

http://www.nfl.com/players/stevesmith/gamelogs?id=SMI733120&season=2007

You have really gone over the edge from a poster with some credibility to a caricature.

[Gman was right]

I haven't heard that Jake has said that but actually it wouldn't surprise me. Jake always tries to give everyone else the credit when they succeed while he shoulders all the blame when they fail. So I could see him giving Smith all the credit. Another reason why Smith and he are so close and they feed off each other.

Moose had more than one good season under Fox as his yards per catch increased from 2002 through 2004 until he was traded. His total yards were up and down as Smith emerged but as is common knowledge, total yards are not as good an indicator of success as yards per catch.

And no fox didn't inherit 2 probowl receivers. He inherited one probowl receiver who was 3 years removed from that kind of success and a pro bowl returner who had a total of 10 receptions in his career before Fox arrived. And it took Smith 4 years to become a pro-bowl receiver.

Will the next coach feel grateful that he is inheriting a pro-bowl quarterback in Delhomme. That is the same kind of analogy with Moose.

As for Orton and Grossman, who knows what was going on there at quarterback. Seems the results in Denver would say Orton was the better guy and as I said it takes ability coupled with a system that maximizes that success.

He gives Smith all the credit because he knows he would be nothing without him. Jake doesnt have the ability to make marginal receivers good like Brady or the Mannings or any of the elite QBs do. Jake needs great wrs to bail him out because he is so inconsistent and marginal.

Moose has only had one 1000 yard season under Fox. He dropped from being an elite #1 to a solid #2 since Fox arrived. If Fox's system was so great then he would have been able to develop other recievers by now. Fox's system has only been successful because he inherited two all pro receivers. Im sure I could coach the team and get the same results out of those two. Smith and Moose in his prime would be successful under most HC's. Lovie Smith is a pretty damn good coach last time I checked. He just had no QBs until now.

[panthers55]

look at how Smitty played when Matt Moore was finally given the starts.....a noticeable difference than when two horrific options in Vinny and Carr were on the field. All Smitty needs is an average QB to be an elite WR. Carr and Vinny couldn't make plays. The 07 season proved an average QB is all Smitty needs.

Admittedly Moore played better but look at the numbers. In the first 2 games with Jake, Smitty had 4 TDS, and 281 yards for a 18 yards per reception. He averaged 140 yards and 2 TDs per game. With Moore he had 250 yards and 1TD for a average per reception of 11.5 in 3 games which averaged out to 83 yards and 1/3 of a TD per game.

Not even close if you look beyond the surface.

[SMACKDAB]

Where am I wrong? Those are the facts.

http://www.nfl.com/players/stevesmith/gamelogs?id=SMI733120&season=2007

You have really gone over the edge from a poster with some credibility to a caricature.

Ouiiiiii.....that's a nice one! :rofl:

This "credibility" you speak of.......you lost several pages back, so nice company we will be hunhh? :nonod:

[CRA]

Admittedly Moore played better but look at the numbers. In the first 2 games with Jake, Smitty had 4 TDS, and 281 yards for a 18 yards per reception. He averaged 140 yards and 2 TDs per game. With Moore he had 250 yards and 1TD for a average per reception of 11.5 in 3 games which averaged out to 83 yards and 1/3 of a TD per game.

Not even close if you look beyond the surface.

the start Jake and Smith got of to in 07 is not the norm that duo and not the best to use for a legit comparison. When a remotely functional QB got into the game the last 3 weeks...Smith was back to being Smith.