Analysis: Beyond The Completion Percentage - Why Carolina's Scheme And Weapons Made Life Hard For Cam

[Bytes]

36 minutes ago, lightsout said:

Except everything I am saying is verifiable by watching the games...

let me get this straight. You are correct because you watch the games and your opinions are correct, however I state facts and watch the games so therefore I am wrong???? Errr.... OK then!

[lightsout]

Just now, Bytes said:

let me get this straight. You are correct because you watch the games and your opinions are correct, however I state facts and watch the games so therefore I am wrong???? Errr.... OK then!

Making a qualitative statement such as "Cam's an average passer" isn't a "fact". Sorry. Try again.

[tiger7_88]

56 minutes ago, Saca312 said:

And he keeps going back to that "58.4%" completion percentage like that means anything.

Yet denies every piece of film and analysis from guys who actually have a reputation from doing just that. 

This - my friends - is the very definition of a troll who can't back his crap up.

Hogmollies LOVES Cam Newton, Saca...

BUT...

.

.

.

lol

[Hogmolliesmaht]

Just now, Darth Biscuit said:

It was a damn lot on Shula and Rivera.  There was some awful coaching last season. 

 

2 minutes ago, lightsout said:

OK, now we're in a point-counterpoint type of conversation, finally.

You seem (correct me if I'm wrong) to assume that downfield passing plays always have a safety valve that is open more times than not. Shula often doesn't, and if he does, it's often a guy sitting in the linebackers and he's covered. This is observable in every game. Also, hard to anticipate throws when there's no separation. Throwing receivers open is referencing either 1) throwing the ball previous to the route breaking like in post routes, flag routes, comebacks, etc., 2) on deep balls with a lot of field to either side of the receiver and the QB throws the pass to the open field away from the defender(s) so the receiver has a chance to run under it and away from the defenders. 

When there's no separation, Cam can anticipate his throws all day and he's still going to be forced to thread the needle 20+ yards downfield. Again, look at guys like Brady or even Matt Ryan more times than not when they go deep. Wide open receivers. Cam doesn't get that luxury often at all (maybe once every quarter of the season). Again, observable fact.


You can't always create space for your receiver if they can't run routes or negotiate the press well enough to get open. 89 was great at this. He would get open when he would cut during his route or he would get the separation by beating a defender trying to close in tight on him (either presnap at the line or even 5 yards off). We don't have a receiver that can do that that often.

Well the author of this thread made a similar one about a week or so ago with GIFs that showed guys open underneath that Cam missed and a few of us pointed it out. I guess you missed all of them you you "watched the games" , huh?

[lightsout]

Also, @Hogmolliesmaht, in reference to my last post where I quoted you, Cam does do well anticipating on most of his breaking routes, like deep outs and comebacks. The ones he doesn't are not so egregious because, again, even the "greats" you talk about don't always hit those perfectly. Peyton got picked off a LOT on those types of routes, for instance.

[lightsout]

1 minute ago, Hogmolliesmaht said:

 

Well the author of this thread made a similar one about a week or so ago with GIFs that showed guys open underneath that Cam missed and a few of us pointed it out. I guess you missed all of them you you "watched the games" , huh?

I've specifically stated earlier that Cam DOES miss open guys at times. I've also stated that Cam CAN improve in some areas, as a passer. I'm not saying that Cam is flawless. I'm saying that when the system is deep passing oriented, it's hard to fault the QB for waiting on those deep routes to develop before scanning through the progressions. If we utilized a more balanced play-calling scheme where we throw a good amount of quick routes and fewer deep down the field passing plays, I think we'd see the improvement from Cam everybody is wanting in terms of completion percentage. Unfortunately, we seem to give Cam one or two of those types of plays per game and 20+ plays where the routes are 15+ yards down the field. Again, the point of this entire thread...

[Hogmolliesmaht]

5 minutes ago, tiger7_88 said:

Hogmollies LOVES Cam Newton, Saca...

BUT...

.

.

.

lol

You're free to believe whatever you want but I used to post here as Monstercat and I argued just as vehemently for the Panthers to draft Cam as I'm arguing with you guys about his completion percentage right now. That's a fact.

 

Also, I"m simply saying that he needs to be a little better if he wants to win a SB. It shouldn't be that hard to pick it up about 5% with the weapons and the O-line he has now. Do you really think that's too much to ask from an NFL QB?

[lightsout]

Also, when Cam is having to wait on those deep passes to develop because that is what the play calls for, the patchwork OL we had last season breaks down, preventing Cam from getting to the eventual checkdown if it is even open. This is a system issue that gets exacerbated by porous OL and WRs that cannot get separation, forcing throws into tighter windows. 2015 wasn't an aberration as much as it was a healthy OL (that still struggled at times, but not nearly as much as last season) and that allowed for things to develop more. Also, the KB factor that can't be ignored because for whatever reason, the offense just seemed better in '15 without him out there.

[Hogmolliesmaht]

1 minute ago, lightsout said:

I've specifically stated earlier that Cam DOES miss open guys at times. I've also stated that Cam CAN improve in some areas, as a passer. I'm not saying that Cam is flawless. I'm saying that when the system is deep passing oriented, it's hard to fault the QB for waiting on those deep routes to develop before scanning through the progressions. If we utilized a more balanced play-calling scheme where we throw a good amount of quick routes and fewer deep down the field passing plays, I think we'd see the improvement from Cam everybody is wanting in terms of completion percentage. Unfortunately, we seem to give Cam one or two of those types of plays per game and 20+ plays where the routes are 15+ yards down the field. Again, the point of this entire thread...

Then we pretty much agree, except that I believe the play calling was actually pretty balanced. The real problem was that we couldn't run the ball with the conventional running game and that was actually partially true in 2015 too. Most of the rushing yardage then either came from the zone read or was set up by the zone read. We needed a better power running attack in the worst way to set up the passing game.

[lightsout]

Just now, Hogmolliesmaht said:

Then we pretty much agree, except that I believe the play calling was actually pretty balanced. The real problem was that we couldn't run the ball with the conventional running game and that was actually partially true in 2015 too. Most of the rushing yardage then either came from the zone read or was set up by the zone read. We needed a better power running attack in the worst way to set up the passing game.

I can absolutely agree there. Cam is always at his deadliest off of play action. Without the threat of the run game where the source is a RB and not Cam, defenses have a much easier time against us. They're just sitting back and waiting for their front 7 to get pressure,  which always seems to come while we're waiting for those deep passes to develop.

[bababoey]

Worst thread ever. Would not read again

Sent using the amazing CarolinaHuddle mobile app

[Hogmolliesmaht]

1 minute ago, bababoey said:

Worst thread ever. Would not read again

Sent using the amazing CarolinaHuddle mobile app
 

Tell the truth. You love it!

[J.Cage]

9 hours ago, Hogmolliesmaht said:

Tom Brady has played behind makeshift lines, with mediocre WR's, and has gone through plenty of OC's who left the Patriots and failed elsewhere and he has never had a losing season. Maybe it is unfair to hold Cam to the same standard as the GOAT, but I'm gonna because he's been around long enough to learn all the lessons and he's making GOAT money.

What about the other 30?

[Udogg]

9 hours ago, Saca312 said:

That offense that we ran with DA was similar to a WC system in which passes were out in 2 seconds or less and predicated on quick short passes. The coaching staff decided to help DA out with simpler vanilla route concepts, short passes, and screens. 

Simply put the playcalling is like any other offense that inflated QB stats because of how friendly it is. The playcalls worked decently because we weren't planning to use them all year and only temporarily, making sure other teams won't be able to easily exploit it.

Yet when Cam's on the field, Shula employs the deep passes and difficult schemes because that was the plan all year since training camp. @Jeremy Igo even mentioned how last year's TC rarely showed Cam throwing short and had a bunch of deep passes.

I call Bull on that...  

We did not implement an entirely different system for DA to run.  Same plays, it's just the DA goes short, medium, long where Cam is the opposite.   Get NFL gamepass and watch the all 22.  Cam is allergic to checkdowns, and would rather hold for a bigger play.  His ability to break tackles and stand tall in the pocket probably leads into that.   

DA knows he aint running away from anyone, and he is more than willing to check down unless he sees a quick 1 on  1 situation where he is more likely to throw it up.   Cam can be great yet still make mistakes.  Blaming Shula for Cam not taking the check downs is wrong.