PFF Samuel Monson: Panthers Offense Is The One To Watch Out For, Not The Bucs

[joemac]

36 minutes ago, GoobyPls said:

Nope I read the part where he said Desean can juts run really fast. PFF is full of brainless idiots and mouth breathers who fall in their every words like you.

 

You really think Mccaffrey and Samuel are some on-coverable weapons the NFL have never seen? LOL. You put a average DB on either on them, jam them up and they are done, their rookies with no experience. Match up nightmare is what Tampa surrounded Jamies with, one of the best deep threats in the NFL with a 6'5 monster who catches everything, the perfect balance

Well that sounds good, just throw a CB on them and theyre done. How many CBs is the other team going to put on the field against us at once? 6? 5? Pleaseeeeeee do that. That just means we run for 250 yards a game. If you can't see how these two guys are going to create nightmares for opposing defenses then there's really nothing else to be said....

 

[SetfreexX]

When it comes to DeSean Jackson vs Samuel he may be the better deep threat / receiver today, however DeSean is 31 this year and Samuel is 22 iirc. But Jackson has always been and still is a vertical threat, and the occasional punt returns at this point in his career but that's about it. The thing about Samuel is not only does he have the potential to be that vertical threat for us BUT he will also provide a multiple look for our offense that's an aspect Jackson can't duplicate, then when you factor in McCaffrey as well it only adds to the mis-match potential. 

What the PFF writer was saying is NOT dismissive of the talent on Tampa's roster but rather the lack of mis-matches it can create vs man coverage. He highlighted Olsen, McCaffrey, & Samuel vs man 1v1 all three of them are a mismatch for the LB/S/nickel. You have to remember that all three of them can line up in the backfield >> motion to the slot >> split wide - putting a S/LB in that kind of open field vs any of those three is a win for us. 

Then beyond that we still have a thousand yard receiver in Benjamin outside, you guys can complain about the hold vs Minnesota, or the effort vs San Diego, but you can't deny he is a legit number one / thousand yard receiver. And while you guys may not respect him, NFL coaches do, and he still draws bracket coverage, and as the lone threat back in 14 (Avant, and Cotchery) he carried our receivers. The presence of now three legitimate threats underneath means less bracket coverage on KB, less green dog blitzes (from man coverage) due to the math-up issues. 

So while Tampa Bay's offense may have been upgraded considerably from a traditional stand-point, they didn't create the kind of match-up issues we did when taking two players that create the opportunities McCaffrey & Samuel can. 

[GoobyPls]

5 minutes ago, joemac said:

Well that sounds good, just throw a CB on them and theyre done. How many CBs is the other team going to put on the field against us at once? 6? 5? Pleaseeeeeee do that. That just means we run for 250 yards a game. If you can't see how these two guys are going to create nightmares for opposing defenses then there's really nothing else to be said....

 

Most teams use 4 or 3 already, and a lot safeties can cover receivers, backs and tight ends. Yep I'm sure the panthers have created the most unstoppable offense in the NFL with a rookies.

[SetfreexX]

And if teams try to match that personnel with 5 DBs (Nickel) or 6 DBs (Dime) -- then you are forgetting just how much easier it's going to be to be able to run on a 5 or 6 man box as those defenses deploy 2 LBs or just 1 depending on the DB count. 

That is the ENTIRE purpose of the draft picks, that's the match-up issue, they beat the LB's and S's on routes, and if a defense goes small to counter the receiving threats, they open themselves up to the run. Right now the only potential mis-match is DeSean Jackson for TB and I feel confident in Bradberry in that match-up. Which means Evans will likely draw Worley who I think we can scheme to help. 

Howard would have to contend with Kuechly, Davis, or Thompson, and I feel good about all three of them in that scenario. But the thing is none of those three is as versatile as Olsen, McCaffrey, or Samuel. We did a good job limiting Jackson when we beat WAS, and we did a good job on Evans, I'm not too worried about TB's offense when you look at our defense. 

[ImperiousRex0916]

17 minutes ago, bleedsgreenandgold said:

Let him keep thinking this is Madden.

DeShaun Jackson is NOT that great...PERIOD!!!!!!!!! That's why he was a F.A as long as he was before the Bucs signed him...I think that our Offense coming into the 2017 Season on paper is WAY more explosive, exciting, talented, & versatile than the Bucs is...I honestly think the Bucs will have the WORST Offense in our ENTIRE Division this Season and the team who improved the most in the Off-Season ( other than us obviously ), is the New Orleans Saints by giving Drew Brees Ted Ginn Jr., & Adrian Peterson...The Saints Offense scares me ALOT more coming into this year than the Bucs or even the Falcons does...I don't see Matt Ryan having a comeback year that even comes close to the performance that he showed us last Season...I could be wrong but as long as we stay healthy I think the ENTRE NFC & not just the NFC South is Carolina's to lose hands down...We are the best team in the  ENTIRE NFC if not the ENTIRE NFL on paper in my personal opinion

[SetfreexX]

6 minutes ago, GoobyPls said:

Most teams use 4 or 3 already, and a lot safeties can cover receivers, backs and tight ends. Yep I'm sure the panthers have created the most unstoppable offense in the NFL with a rookies.

Safeties, and linebackers are not gonna match up with McCaffrey, Olsen, and Samuel. NFL teams simply DO NOT have that many coverage inclined players available. The only team that may is Arizona from a personnel stand point that is extremely flexible (Mathieu, Peterson, Baker, Buchanon), BUT even they have to go small to do it WHICH AGAIN opens the run up. 

THAT IS THE ENTIRE POINT - it's a pick your poison, defend the run, we have one of three players that can win 1v1, you play the pass we're still in 11 personnel and have the box count in our favor. it's very simple X's and O's. 

The defense can't create a favorable personnel match-up to defend the run and the pass at the same time. 

[ecu88]

9 minutes ago, SetfreexX said:

Safeties, and linebackers are not gonna match up with McCaffrey, Olsen, and Samuel. NFL teams simply DO NOT have that many coverage inclined players available. The only team that may is Arizona from a personnel stand point that is extremely flexible (Mathieu, Peterson, Baker, Buchanon), BUT even they have to go small to do it WHICH AGAIN opens the run up. 

THAT IS THE ENTIRE POINT - it's a pick your poison, defend the run, we have one of three players that can win 1v1, you play the pass we're still in 11 personnel and have the box count in our favor. it's very simple X's and O's. 

The defense can't create a favorable personnel match-up to defend the run and the pass at the same time. 

SetfreexX is trying to set free Gooby's mind. Gooby is a lost cause. People think too much in the box. It is awesome to see a fellow huddler seeing the bigger picture in envisioning the future of NFL trends. Our team is going to be fun to watch this coming season.

[PantherWake]

You don't watch DeSean Jackson enough if you think he's a one trick pony

[juliosantos]

11 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I'm hoping that these matchups will allow KB to truly shine and maybe even allow Funchess to do... well, something.

if kb and funchess shine  our offense will be crazy good im hoping they both breakout going into their 3rd season

[grimesgoat]

10 hours ago, csx said:

Looking at last season you need to get up to about the 3rd or 4th passing offense in the league before the 3rd receiving option gets in the 600-700 range. That would be stellar given that our two rookies  will also be used in the passing game.

This is a very good comment.

2000 yds rushing and 4000 yds passing puts us top 5 in rushing and around 12-15th in passing.  I believe that is the sweet spot.

If Benjamin is getting 1000, the TEs Olsen/Dickson are getting 1000, and our shiny new toys Samuel and CMC are getting around 1000 yards in the air, that doesn't leave a whole lot for the rest of the gang.  Funchess, Shepherd, and Johnson are all capable receivers, but their numbers are not going to be spectacular if we are still a 2000 yard rushing team.

Funchess may have been a little over-drafted, but he will be good for what he will be asked to do.  He will convert 3rd downs to firsts.  He will be a good red zone target.  He will excel in blocking due to his size mis-match. But barring injury and being the third or fourth option probably only nets him 400-600 yds this year. 

[Hogmolliesmaht]

If nothing else, CMC and Samuel will help to open things up for Olsen, KB,and Funchess and they should help the running game, while they're at it. You can say they are unproven all you want but somebody still has to cover them, hence the match up problems for the defense.

[GoobyPls]

54 minutes ago, SetfreexX said:

Safeties, and linebackers are not gonna match up with McCaffrey, Olsen, and Samuel. NFL teams simply DO NOT have that many coverage inclined players available. The only team that may is Arizona from a personnel stand point that is extremely flexible (Mathieu, Peterson, Baker, Buchanon), BUT even they have to go small to do it WHICH AGAIN opens the run up. 

THAT IS THE ENTIRE POINT - it's a pick your poison, defend the run, we have one of three players that can win 1v1, you play the pass we're still in 11 personnel and have the box count in our favor. it's very simple X's and O's. 

The defense can't create a favorable personnel match-up to defend the run and the pass at the same time. 

Like I said above most teams already use nickel and dime packages even when playing a run heavy team like ours. You think Stewart is some prime Adrian Peterson that just rip off big runs whenever? here's a little memo our running game struggled against nickel packages. Also theirs a thing called zone defense you might of heard of it.

NFL Defenses adjust to everything, two rookies aren't gonna change that. The best thing Samuel can do is compliment Kelvin and become a Desean Jackson mold.

[LinvilleGorge]

1 hour ago, grimesgoat said:

This is a very good comment.

2000 yds rushing and 4000 yds passing puts us top 5 in rushing and around 12-15th in passing.  I believe that is the sweet spot.

If Benjamin is getting 1000, the TEs Olsen/Dickson are getting 1000, and our shiny new toys Samuel and CMC are getting around 1000 yards in the air, that doesn't leave a whole lot for the rest of the gang.  Funchess, Shepherd, and Johnson are all capable receivers, but their numbers are not going to be spectacular if we are still a 2000 yard rushing team.

Funchess may have been a little over-drafted, but he will be good for what he will be asked to do.  He will convert 3rd downs to firsts.  He will be a good red zone target.  He will excel in blocking due to his size mis-match. But barring injury and being the third or fourth option probably only nets him 400-600 yds this year. 

These things are going to happen based on what? I think a lot of fans are still looking at Funchess as the big WR/TE hybrid he was talked about being leading up to the draft. What we've seen so far is one of the softest big receivers in the NFL.  He doesn't play to his measurables at all. I hope that changes but I have little confidence that it actually will.

[SetfreexX]

1 hour ago, GoobyPls said:

Like I said above most teams already use nickel and dime packages even when playing a run heavy team like ours. You think Stewart is some prime Adrian Peterson that just rip off big runs whenever? here's a little memo our running game struggled against nickel packages. Also theirs a thing called zone defense you might of heard of it.

NFL Defenses adjust to everything, two rookies aren't gonna change that. The best thing Samuel can do is compliment Kelvin and become a Desean Jackson mold.

Please show me these stats that we struggled to run vs Nickel and Dime....It's becoming clear that you are not as informed as you think you are. The majority of our offense operated from 11 (1 HB / 1 TE) & 12 (1 HB / 2 TE) which means that teams could still match-up in base (4-3 / 3-4) or Nickel (5 DBs/2LBs) -- the struggles were if we checked to a pass the receivers we had in 11 & 12 personnel could not create separation (KB/Funchess/Ginn) as Ginn rarely lined up in the slot and Stewart in the backfield who is not a mis-match from a coverage stand point. 

Personnel Package Reference - https://www.profootballfocus.com/offensive-packages/

41.35% in 11 (1 HB / 1 TE)

37.02% in 12 (1 HB / 2 TE)

11.54% in 21 (2 HB / 1 TE)

^ All the above are TRADITIONALLY favorably matched by (4-3 / 3-4) - Of the top three personnel groupings we deployed only ONE would garner nickel coverage (11). None of them would elicit Dime coverage excluding 3rd and longs, but that would de-bunk your theory of not being able to run vs Dime defense. 

Now you flip that personnel, and replace Ginn with Samuel who now moves inside to the slot, or start him in the backfield to motion to the slot across formation forces the defense has to tip it's hand from a coverage stand point (man if he's followed, zone if you see a shift), and moves Funchess (or Johnson outside), Not to mentioned McCaffrey can be used in the same fashion. This is invaluable information KNOWING whether you are facing man or zone on a given play. (PRE-SNAP)

That is something we were unable to do last season as the HB was typically Stewart or Tolbert, and neither is a mis-match vs a LB or S, Dickson has been ineffective as a pass catcher in his tenor here as well.

If you can't see that we literally have options that can line up anywhere, and create issues for a defensive coordinator and your only consolation is zone defense then you're a lost cause. Zone defense is STILL personnel based, and with a lighter box (5-6 defenders) instead of facing (7-8) defenders because the receivers weren't a threat makes a HUGE difference as teams could over-play the run with little threat of our receivers beating the coverage in time. 

If you paid attention in 15 & 16 we were one of the FEW teams that kept in SEVEN players to pass protect the most. Which means we could only threaten the defense with 3 routes vs 7 or 8 defenders in coverage (depending on the rush). This defensive blue print was illustrated in the Superbowl, if we kept in help teams blitzed it and the receivers couldn't create separation, if we released and pass protected with less the OL couldn't hold up. We didn't have anyone that could win on quick routes. It really is that simple, that is what these additions (McCaffrey & Samuel) bring, the ability to win on quick routes.