Legit question. Does LeBron belong in the same breath as Jordan if he and the Cavs beat the Warriors this year?

[nctarheel0619]

4 hours ago, Still Brooklyn said:

I pretty much agree with you all the way, Dave. But after watching the Lakers/Celtics 30 For 30 the past two nights, I learned Bill Walton joined the Celts during their run. So, lol ... ONE guy did it!

I miss the old NBA. The Bad Boys, etc. They would not be able to play in the sissy league we have now though. A league with next to no defense at all.

What kills me is when LeBron fan boys start trying to say the Pistons were old when Jordan beat them.  Dumars was 27, Isiah was 30, and Rodman was 29.  LOL.  

[Mvp2014]

1 hour ago, nctarheel0619 said:

Moe Williams was actually.  Yeah, in the end he's lost 5 and the only MVP ever to lose 5 Finals.  Conversation is officially over now.  

Not really.  Rings don't mean poo to me especially now in this modern NBA.  Lebron will go down as a top 5 great and is the top talent to come out since Kobe and MJ before him.  I'm a black mamba kind of guy but come on..  Who else brought no name punks like mozgov and delonte west to the finals by himself?  Sure wasn't MJ or Kobe.  Those Bulls and Lakers teams were STACKED

[SOJA]

Lebron is the second best player ever at this point. If he wins another championship I will personally consider him the best ever. 

[The Lobo]

4 hours ago, Mvp2014 said:

Lebron has solidified a top 3 all time spot in my opinion.  That Cavs team he dragged to the finals in 07' had no business being there.  Look at CLE scoring in the finals with/without lebron on the floor this year.  He should have been the MVP not KD.  He is without a doubt the best current player and could go down as best all time after the smoke clears and people realize what he did with what he had.  Lets see Durant or Steph drag a team to the Finals without any other supporting cast.  Delonte West was the 2nd best player on that team LOL

That said he was really bad in one of the finals, maybe 2012 and has never been that clutch.  Kobe and MJ will always win that one

Very well said.

[pantherphan96]

 

[nctarheel0619]

28 minutes ago, pantherphan96 said:

 

I watched 10-30 seconds of this.  Dude was wrong twice to start so I stopped.  He went through Detroit with Dumars at 27, Isiah at 30, and Rodman at 29 to play the Lakers.  The Lakers had Magic at 31, and Worthy at 29, Byron Scott also played in that series.  That dude seems like a f ucking moron.  

[pantherphan96]

3 minutes ago, nctarheel0619 said:

I watched 10-30 seconds of this.  Dude was wrong twice to start so I stopped.  He went through Detroit with Dumars at 27, Isiah at 30, and Rodman at 29 to play the Lakers.  The Lakers had Magic at 31, and Worthy at 29, Byron Scott also played in that series.  That dude seems like a f ucking moron.  

He's right that they faced the end of the Showtime Lakers, it was Magic's last full season, Worthy's last full season, and Scott played in that series only by the loosest definition, shot 27%.

He's right about the Trailblazers only having Drexler and bunch of bums around him. Barkley is the only HOF on the Suns in 93, Kevin Johnson and Majerle were decent but no match for Jordan/Pippen.

He's right that the Bulls won 57 games with Jordan in 93 and 55 without him in 94.

Jordan/Pippen/Rodman completely overmatched the Sonics who had a HOF in Gary Payton but who else? Shawn Kemp and Detlef Schrempf?

Only good team they faced was the Jazz with an aging John Stockton (35 and 36) and Karl Malone (34 and 35) while Jordan was 34 he had time off playing baseball, Rodman was 36 but wasn't asked to do anything besides crash the glass and Pippen was only 32.

I think if this year's Cavs played last year's Warriors they would have easily won this series, they would have won in 2015 with Kyrie healthy not to mention Love being healthy.

This Warriors team, the Warriors team in 2015, and the Spurs team they lost to in 2014 were all great squads that would have beaten the teams Jordan faced in the Finals. The only inexcusable loss Lebron has is against the Mavs in 2011.

[nctarheel0619]

3 hours ago, pantherphan96 said:

He's right that they faced the end of the Showtime Lakers, it was Magic's last full season, Worthy's last full season, and Scott played in that series only by the loosest definition, shot 27%.

He's right about the Trailblazers only having Drexler and bunch of bums around him. Barkley is the only HOF on the Suns in 93, Kevin Johnson and Majerle were decent but no match for Jordan/Pippen.

He's right that the Bulls won 57 games with Jordan in 93 and 55 without him in 94.

Jordan/Pippen/Rodman completely overmatched the Sonics who had a HOF in Gary Payton but who else? Shawn Kemp and Detlef Schrempf?

Only good team they faced was the Jazz with an aging John Stockton (35 and 36) and Karl Malone (34 and 35) while Jordan was 34 he had time off playing baseball, Rodman was 36 but wasn't asked to do anything besides crash the glass and Pippen was only 32.

I think if this year's Cavs played last year's Warriors they would have easily won this series, they would have won in 2015 with Kyrie healthy not to mention Love being healthy.

This Warriors team, the Warriors team in 2015, and the Spurs team they lost to in 2014 were all great squads that would have beaten the teams Jordan faced in the Finals. The only inexcusable loss Lebron has is against the Mavs in 2011.

It doesn't matter.  Jordan had a tougher road to get to the Finals.  Every year unlike LeBron.  Plus, 6-0>3-5.  Jordan will always be the GOAT.  Because he never lost to any team he was favored over.  And never took a Finals series to 7 games.  It's remarkable what he did.  What LeBron has done is be an all time loser when it matters.  Here you go.  Found this phenomenal photo for you.  

 

[Still Brooklyn]

It's impossible to really rank anyone objectively because the game always changes, as do the teams. MJ, Wilt, Kareem, Bill Russell, Kobe, Shaq, even freakin' Karl Malone are all gods. LeBron is just part of the list and in years to come someone will challenge him. Who's to say KD, Westbrook, or the Beard won't put together crazy numbers? Who's to say Steph won't have a handful of rings? I mean ... the biggest argument for LeBron is that he did SO much with SO little a handful of times. Well if that's the case, hi Dominique Wilkins, lol.

[pantherphan96]

1 hour ago, nctarheel0619 said:

It doesn't matter.  Jordan had a tougher road to get to the Finals.  Every year unlike LeBron.  Plus, 6-0>3-5.  Jordan will always be the GOAT.  Because he never lost to any team he was favored over.  And never took a Finals series to 7 games.  It's remarkable what he did.  

I'm a Celtics fan so I'm not sure if you think I really give two sh!ts about Kobe or Lebron besides the fact that the Jordan-Lebron comparisons are always so skewed in Jordan's favor and ignoring the differences in 90s NBA and today's NBA.

Recently the East has been weaker but Lebron finished off the great Pistons team of the early 00's, finished off the Celtics big 3, defeated a great Bulls team with a MVP Derrick Rose in 2011, and thwarted a really good Pacers team in 2013 and 2014.

Wilt is 2-4 in Finals and is considered one of the GOATs, Magic went 5-4, KAJ (who has a case to be considered GOAT) went 6-4. Jordan's 6-0 is impressive but Lebron could certainly add another ring or two before his career is over and already has 2 more Finals appearances.

Quote

What LeBron has done is be an all time loser when it matters.  

All this shows is that you'll point to the same vague arguments like "tougher road" and "Lebron couldn't play in the 90s" that belong on some low-level First Take show with the rest of the uninformed hot takes, which considering some of your posts on the main forum is unsurprising.

[pantherphan96]

I'd say KAJ, Jordan, Lebron right now if I had to name the 3 best players ever.

[nctarheel0619]

19 minutes ago, pantherphan96 said:

I'd say KAJ, Jordan, Lebron right now if I had to name the 3 best players ever.

I can respect Kareeem.  Since you're a Celts fan, as long as you didn't say Bill Russell, that's fine.  I got LeBron at 6 for mine.  MJ, Kareem, Magic, Duncan, Shaq.  If LeBron gets another one, he'll get past Shaq.  

[nctarheel0619]

29 minutes ago, pantherphan96 said:

I'm a Celtics fan so I'm not sure if you think I really give two sh!ts about Kobe or Lebron besides the fact that the Jordan-Lebron comparisons are always so skewed in Jordan's favor and ignoring the differences in 90s NBA and today's NBA.

Recently the East has been weaker but Lebron finished off the great Pistons team of the early 00's, finished off the Celtics big 3, defeated a great Bulls team with a MVP Derrick Rose in 2011, and thwarted a really good Pacers team in 2013 and 2014.

Wilt is 2-4 in Finals and is considered one of the GOATs, Magic went 5-4, KAJ (who has a case to be considered GOAT) went 6-4. Jordan's 6-0 is impressive but Lebron could certainly add another ring or two before his career is over and already has 2 more Finals appearances.

All this shows is that you'll point to the same vague arguments like "tougher road" and "Lebron couldn't play in the 90s" that belong on some low-level First Take show with the rest of the uninformed hot takes, which considering some of your posts on the main forum is unsurprising.

Pistons team didn't have Ben Wallace, he was a Bull.  The Celtics were all past their primes, hence the reason Ray Allen left.  Rose was a baller that year, but if you're going to judge Jordan, Rose had no help besides shitty ass Noah.  Also, Paul George is not good.  Back then, he was okay.  But he's just not that good.  Never was.  And meh, it's not First Take.  We judge players on wins correct?  That's how we as adults argue sports.  Tom Brady had five rings, Montana has four.  Jordan is 6-0 when it matters.  At what point did we accept sucking ass when it matters and that being okay (check LeBrons stats in the forth quarter vs the Warriors)?  No player as the best player on their team is undefeated in the Finals.  Except Michael Jeffrey Jordan.  Even Bill Russell lost one, and you could argue Cousy was better sometimes. 

[pantherphan96]

26 minutes ago, nctarheel0619 said:

I can respect Kareeem.  Since you're a Celts fan, as long as you didn't say Bill Russell, that's fine.  I got LeBron at 6 for mine.  MJ, Kareem, Magic, Duncan, Shaq.  If LeBron gets another one, he'll get past Shaq.  

Bill Russell is the ultimate argument against rating players based off the amount of rings they have or their record in the Finals. HOFs like Elgin Baylor (0-8) and Jerry West (1-8) have awful records in the Finals but are still great players.

I'm glad you don't have Kobe past Shaq. I have Lebron at 3 right now speculating what his stats might look like by the time he retires, whether or not he moves up depends on if he wins any more Finals.