Legit question. Does LeBron belong in the same breath as Jordan if he and the Cavs beat the Warriors this year?

[nctarheel0619]

7 hours ago, pantherphan96 said:

I literally never said any of the poo you are making up. Guys like Horford, Draymond, Millsap etc would not dominate any center 1v1, now or back in the 90s. My point is that offenses are much different today and just sticking a bruising 90s center into the paint and feeding him the ball would not work in todays NBA for multiple reasons: the NBA is a lot more foul-happy today to allow for more open play, and players are much more well-rounded. Name a big that could hit 3's back in the 90s. Ball movement and 3pt shooting in todays game is far superior to the 90s ISO-ball style of play.

You can live in the past and wax poetic about how you think 90s basketball was better but going back to the original question, if Lebron beats the Warriors this year he's easily in the conversation with Jordan, and if he doesn't he's still gonna be a top 5 player by the time he retires.

MY question is at what point do we start docking LeBron for losing so much in the Finals?  He loses one more, he no longer can be Top 3 in my opinion.  No matter how many meaningless bull poo records.  

[pantherphan96]

1 hour ago, nctarheel0619 said:

MY question is at what point do we start docking LeBron for losing so much in the Finals?  He loses one more, he no longer can be Top 3 in my opinion.  No matter how many meaningless bull poo records.  

Fair point but given the circumstances of his losses the only ones I can really hold against him is the loss against the Mavs (completely inexcusable) and the 2nd time around vs the Spurs losing in 5. He had no chance the first time against the Spurs in 2007 and was without Irving and Love against the Warriors 2 years ago. 

[nctarheel0619]

12 hours ago, pantherphan96 said:

Fair point but given the circumstances of his losses the only ones I can really hold against him is the loss against the Mavs (completely inexcusable) and the 2nd time around vs the Spurs losing in 5. He had no chance the first time against the Spurs in 2007 and was without Irving and Love against the Warriors 2 years ago. 

I get it, believe me, I get that.  But man, he's had excuse after excuse from people.  Hell, even Max Kellerman said he props him up more for that effort vs Golden State in the Finals a few years back.  But, na.  I can't do that.  I think that's also another element.  When you get to the Finals 8 years in a row.  It shows your competition out East has been trash for a while.  

[Devin]

On 5/9/2017 at 4:53 PM, Carl Spackler said:

There are only about six players in today's NBA who would've been All-Stars in the 1990s

LeBron
Westbrook
Durant
Curry
Harden
Thomas (MAYBE)

No center now would be a top-five center in 1998

Hm.  You gotta add a few more lol 

[SOJA]

Warriors this year are way better than any team Jordan beat 

[pantherphan96]

4 hours ago, nctarheel0619 said:

I get it, believe me, I get that.  But man, he's had excuse after excuse from people.  Hell, even Max Kellerman said he props him up more for that effort vs Golden State in the Finals a few years back.  But, na.  I can't do that.  I think that's also another element.  When you get to the Finals 8 years in a row.  It shows your competition out East has been trash for a while.  

I think you could also make the point that All-Star caliber players in the West have stayed with teams in the West to avoid having to compete against Lebron in the East. But it would be interesting to see how his Heat and Cavs teams would have done if they were in the West.

[nctarheel0619]

40 minutes ago, pantherphan96 said:

I think you could also make the point that All-Star caliber players in the West have stayed with teams in the West to avoid having to compete against Lebron in the East. But it would be interesting to see how his Heat and Cavs teams would have done if they were in the West.

Disagree with that.  Just seems like others have just stayed with the team they're loyal to.  Westbrook, and harden for example.  

[blackcat]

IMO, Lebron lost all credibility when he went to Miami.  If he had stayed in Cleveland, I'd consider him to be on MJ's level, but he took the easy way out to get his titles.  Plus, with expansion, today's NBA is too talent diluted as compared to MJ's NBA.

[Shocker]

LeBron is one of the best ever.  Really no need to ask this anymore.

[DaveThePanther2008]

On 5/9/2017 at 8:26 PM, Omega Atrocity said:

For sure, the Warriors are far and away better than any team Jordan ever beat in a finals. No matter what is said in this sub-forum, the 90s were a more watered down league than today. The NBA expanded by 4 teams in that era and there were a lot of just garbage teams rotting at the bottom, it's why the Jazz were able to stay relevant for so long.

You could say that the average playoff team now isn't as good as it was in that era , which is fair, each conference had about 4 good teams so Jordan had to go through a tougher road to get there and not get 27 days of rest through the first two rounds. 

It still wouldn't be the case of LeBron is better for sure, but it would be much close. A fun thing to remember: LeBron James is only 32 years old. All that being said, it is really really difficult to compare the two, the league isn't anything like it was then.

 

Teams Jordan played in the finals:

1990-91 Lakers (58-24): 7.1 Net Rating

1991-92 Blazers (57-25): 6.9 Net Rating

1992-93 Suns (62-20): 6.4 Net Rating

1995-96 Sonics (64-18): 8.2 Net Rating

1996-97 Jazz (64-18): 9.6 Net Rating 

1997-98 Jazz (62-20): 7.3 Net Rating

 

Teams LeBron played in the finals:

2006-07 Spurs (58-24): 9.3 Net Rating (L)

2010-11 Mavericks (57-25): 4.7 Net Rating (L)

2011-12 Thunder (47-19 prorated to 59-23): 6.6 Net Rating

2012-13 Spurs (58-24): 6.7 Net Rating

2013-14 Spurs (62-20): 8.1 Net Rating (L)

2014-15 Warriors (67-15): 10.2 Net Rating (L)

2015-16 Warriors (73-9): 10.7 Net Rating

2016-17 Warriors (67-15): 11.6 Net Rating (?)

This is the most absurd statement I have ever seen. 

The NBA of Today has 3 maybe 4 legitimate teams.

Teams like Charlotte, Denver, Sacramento, Detroit and I could go on and on.  Have NO CHANCE of ever winning the NBA Title.  EVER (not until the NBA creates parity, which will never happen)

In today's NBA a dozen super talented players try to join forces to win a championship.  

Name me a superstar player from the 80-90s that switched teams.  Players like MJ, Bird, Magic, Malone, Barkley, Iverson....... Stayed with the franchise that drafted them for most of their careers.  Barkley moved to Phoenix late in his career as did Iverson but NONE of them left during their prime and none left because they wanted to join forces to win a championship, they left because the franchise was moving on, even Chicago didn't want Jordan back. They were ready to rebuild after Jordan, same with Garrett from Minnesota. 

Why because it was about being the man and building a team around them.   Today's NBA has nothing to do with competition.  It has to do with a Dozen or so good players try to create the perfect pick team.   Seriously it reminds me of going out to the courts and watching the 4 best guys (half court) align themselves together to run the table till they were tired. 

The NBA of Today is a joke compared to the late 70's to the late 90's.  It is why i basically stopped watching.  No parity.

How can you remotely think LeBron is the GOAT or even in the same breath as Jordan.  In Miami the team was Dwayne Wade's not LeBron's.  LeBron's was #2.  LeBron's only legitimate Championship was last year after he went back to Cleveland.  

The Bulls built around Jordan.  Role players like Grant and Armstrong (who did nothing when they left Chicago) They drafted smart too.  Scott Pippen from Central Arkansas was a stick when he came to Chicago.  Armstrong, Grant, Kukoc were all draft picks.  They took cast off like Bill Wennington, Luke Longley, Cliff Livingston and Bill Cartwright (traded from NY for Oakley)  Took a chance on hot head Dennis Rodman. 

Jordan took those players and made them better.  Championship Caliber Better.  Lebron picked the team with the best talent so he could win his Championship.  

IMO it isn't even a discussion.

[DaveThePanther2008]

One more point.  The talent that comes out in the draft is garbage compared to the 80s-90s.  Players stayed in school for 3 or 4 years learning how to play basketball.  They learned fundamentals that are seriously lacking in today's game.

I remember when there were actually two good rounds of picks (7 in total) Today once you get past pick #5 (and that is pushing it) It is a crap shoot.   One and done is the norm now.  Some may be great but most will fade to nothing. 

It actually shows up on the pickup game courts.   I am 57 and still go out and play.  I get the most stupid looks when I post someone up and call for the ball.  IF, and rarely do, I get the ball they have no idea what to do next.   90% spot up behind the arch and throw up bricks.   Once in a blue moon you actually have someone that drives the lane.  The only option is shooting.  None are looking for a pass for a layup.

Three Points and a Dunk is all today's game is based upon.

Go play with an old school guy like me.   Then you'll see how the game is really supposed to be played.

[Still Brooklyn]

I pretty much agree with you all the way, Dave. But after watching the Lakers/Celtics 30 For 30 the past two nights, I learned Bill Walton joined the Celts during their run. So, lol ... ONE guy did it!

I miss the old NBA. The Bad Boys, etc. They would not be able to play in the sissy league we have now though. A league with next to no defense at all.

[Mvp2014]

Lebron has solidified a top 3 all time spot in my opinion.  That Cavs team he dragged to the finals in 07' had no business being there.  Look at CLE scoring in the finals with/without lebron on the floor this year.  He should have been the MVP not KD.  He is without a doubt the best current player and could go down as best all time after the smoke clears and people realize what he did with what he had.  Lets see Durant or Steph drag a team to the Finals without any other supporting cast.  Delonte West was the 2nd best player on that team LOL

That said he was really bad in one of the finals, maybe 2012 and has never been that clutch.  Kobe and MJ will always win that one

[nctarheel0619]

2 hours ago, Mvp2014 said:

Lebron has solidified a top 3 all time spot in my opinion.  That Cavs team he dragged to the finals in 07' had no business being there.  Look at CLE scoring in the finals with/without lebron on the floor this year.  He should have been the MVP not KD.  He is without a doubt the best current player and could go down as best all time after the smoke clears and people realize what he did with what he had.  Lets see Durant or Steph drag a team to the Finals without any other supporting cast.  Delonte West was the 2nd best player on that team LOL

That said he was really bad in one of the finals, maybe 2012 and has never been that clutch.  Kobe and MJ will always win that one

Moe Williams was actually.  Yeah, in the end he's lost 5 and the only MVP ever to lose 5 Finals.  Conversation is officially over now.