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Never forget...

Jeremy Igo

By Jeremy Igo,
in Carolina Panthers

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WUnderhill Grand Master

WUnderhill

Posted
Posted
14 hours ago, Icege said:

It's funny that you mention this, because the days leading up to and following the draft I started to scribble down and assess Gettleman's drafts (including "notable" UDFAs).

2013
1. DT Lotulelei
2. DT Short
4. OG Kugbila
5. LB Klein
6. RB Barner
U. DE Horton
U. CB White
U. TE Williams
U. SS Lester

The team has retained Short for 5 years while also picking up Star's 5th year option. AJ Klein was a LB that Gettleman had rated as a 3rd rounder and was still able to grab him in the 5th after the Kugbila pick. Overall, I find the 2013 draft to be successful. Any time a team is able to get 2 long term starters from the draft I consider it to be successful (for the most part), but the team was also able to get solid back-ups such as Horton and Klein who contributed throughout their rookie deals in Carolina. White, Williams, and Lester I didn't feel were bad for UDFAs, especially White.

2014
1. WR Benjamin
2. DE Ealy
3. OG Turner
4. FS Boston
5. CB Benwikere
6. RB Gaffney
U. WR Brown
U. OG Norwell
U. LB Glanton

The Panthers at this point were looking for life after Steve Smith and it came in the form of Kelvin Benjamin. Benjamin had a wildly successful rookie season followed by a season-ending injury before his sophomore year could begin. We are aware of his disappointing return last season, but word is that had more to do with the knee of a 6'5" 245lbs man healing rather than a 5'10" 205lbs guy. Ealy had a great Super Bowl, but otherwise could never tap into his potential. I hated the Boston pick, but I feel like Benwikere was crazy great value. Yes, he had a bad season last year (historically bad at that against ATL), but that appears to have been for the same reason as KB: returning from injury too soon. For what he did in his time in Carolina, I think Benwikere in the 5th was an excellent pick. Oh, and did I mention that we finally filled the chasm at RG while also finding life after Travelle Wharton? Two Pro Bowl level guards and a giant weapon for Cam Newton? Glanton wasn't a bad special teamer and Cory Brown had a lot longer life here for a body catcher than I could have imagined.

2015
1. LB Thompson
2. WR Funchess
4. OT Williams
5. LB Mayo
5. RB Artis-Payne
U. WR Byrd
U. RB Wegher
U. S Marlowe
U. LB Blechen

A lot of people believe Shaq Thompson would have been there in the 2nd but I don't see it. The Funchess pick is also heavily criticized, and rightfully so, but this is the season to assess the results of this draft imo. Funchess was very young and learning not just how to play WR but how to love football. Williams has shown promise, but wasn't reliable enough to not draft Taylor Moton this year. Artis-Payne has never looked as good as Brandon Wegher whom is now in STL, and who knows if Byrd will ever make an impact during the regular season despite how well he plays in preseason. The only non-controversial pick from this draft is the most controversial pick at the time and that's David Mayo who has turned out fantastic imo.

2016
1. DT Butler
2. CB Bradberry
3. CB Worley
5. CB Sanchez
7. TE Sandland
U. LB Cash
U. LB Norris
U. WR Garrett

I'm of the opinion that the 2016 & 2015 drafts were the biggest question marks today for Gettleman. Double dipping at CB was understandable after losing Josh Norman and Charles Tillman, but triple dipping? Beau Sandland was my favorite player of this draft (I developed a huge player-crush on him during the combine) but now he's just trying to stay in the league. Bradberry, however, lit it up last season and Worley started to appear comfortable down the stretch (more comfortable than I EVER saw Boston).  Butler I think we're going to see even more flashes of this season (two blocked kicks last season + a sack or three despite a bum ankle and a crazy deep position on the roster? Yes pls).

2017
1. RB McCaffrey
2. WR Samuel
2. OL Moton
3. DE Hall
5. CB Elder
6. FB Armah
7. K Butker
U. LB Boulware
U. WR Ross
U. DE Cox Jr

These kids haven't even gotten past training camp yet so any analysis at this point is just jerking off to the shape of my own letters on the screen. (*looks left... looks right... fapfapfapfapfapfapfap*)

 

So with all that out there, let's look at the players that the team has landed and when:

1st Round
Star Lotulelei, DT, Utah
Kelvin Benjamin, WR, Florida State
Shaq Thompson, LB, Washington
Vernon Butler, DT, Louisiana Tech
Christian McCaffrey, RB, Stanford

Gettleman is money in the first.

2nd Round
Kawann Short, DT, Purdue
Kony Ealy, DE, Missouri
Devin Funchess, WR, Michigan
James Bradberry, CB, Samford
Curtis Samuel, WR, Ohio State
Taylor Moton, OL, Western Michigan

Outside of Ealy and Funchess, Gettleman has been successful in the 2nd round finding some solid value. Short and Bradberry are first round talents that we were able to get in the 2nd (tho folks say Bradberry in the 2nd was way too early, but some analysts had him rated as a late first rounder). Even though Ealy didn't pan out, he did show out in the Super Bowl. Should Funchess turn out alright then it's fairly safe to say that in the 1st and 2nd rounds of the draft that the Panthers not only draft guys that are good enough to stay for the long term, but they draft starters.

3rd Round
Trai Turner, OG, LSU
Daryl Worley, CB, West Virginia
Daeshon Hall, DE, Texas A&M

The first 3 rounds are typically when teams take players they figure to make the team. Gettleman has rocked the 1st, had a bit of a rocky 2nd, but he has only picked in the 3rd on three occasions. The first time he picked, he landed a Pro Bowler for a position the Panthers had been trying to fill for over 3 seasons (Duke Williams, anyone?). I like the Hall pick a lot here as I see a lot of parallels between him and Charles Johnson (another 3rd rounder tho not under Gettleman). Worley was a player I had a lot of hope for but also didn't expect to succeed, but as stated earlier he seemed to figure things out towards the end of last season.

4th Round
Edmund Kugbila, OG, Valdosta State
Tre Boston, FS, North Carolina
Daryll Williams, RT, Oklahoma

Ok, so Gettleman is garbage in the 4th. At least he's only made 3 picks here, and I guess we can be fair and say that Kugbila's health issues could not have been predicted while Williams hasn't looked horrible for a 4th round tackle. Tre Boston tho... I hate to see anybody lose their job, but I'm also relieved that I won't be watching him dive at ankles, give up on pursuits that he's taking awful angles on, and I'm even more relieved we won't have to see the one or two flash plays where he would look good and give us false hope for the future.

5th Round
AJ Klein, LB, Boston College
Bene Benwikere, CB, San Jose St
David Mayo, LB, Texas State
Cameron Artis-Payne, RB, Auburn
Zack Sanchez, CB, Oklahoma
Corn Elder, CB, Miami

If Gettleman is terrible at finding depth or any talent in the 4th, he's about fairly solid in the 5th at landing some high quality back-ups (that can start  too on occasion like Klein & Benwikere). The worst pick out of the group thus far has been Zack Sanchez, and he was the 3rd CB that the team picked the year he was drafted.

6th Round
Kenjon Barner, RB, Oregon
Tyler Gaffney, RB, Stanford
Alex Armah, FB, West Georgia

Find me a GM that makes their money in the 6th.

7th Round
Beau Sandland, TE, Montana State
Harrison Butker, K, Georgia Tech

See above.

UDFAs 
(starters)
Wes Horton, DE, USC
Melvin White, CB, Louisiana-Lafayette
Philly Brown, WR, Ohio State
Andrew Norwell, OG, Ohio State
(back-ups/ST)
Brandon Williams, TE, Oregon
Robert Lester, SS, Alabama
Adarius Glanton, LB, Florida Atlantic
Damierre Byrd, WR, South Carolina
Brandon Wegher, RB, Iowa
Dean Marlowe, S, James Madison
Brian Blechen, LB/S, Utah
Jeremy Cash, LB/S, Duke
Jarred Norris, LB, Utah
Keyarris Garrett, WR, Tulsa
Ben Boulware, LB, Clemson
Fred Ross, WR, Mississippi State
Bryan Cox Jr, DE, Florida

I mean... not too bad, right?

 

So we're in agreement that he's not some late-round wizard?

And if we're talking about all rounds, I'd have to disagree with him being "money" in the first round. As I see it, the only first round draft pick he's made that doesn't currently have question marks is Star. KB issues have been well documented here recently. Shaq may be pretty good, but 53 tackles/season out of a first round LB is not really a great value production wise. I think he was only in on something like half of our defensive snaps last year. I know he will eventually replace TD, but is that worth missing the value for 2 years so far, who knows how many more, in a first round draft pick? Vernon just finished his rookie season, but he may be a back-up for his whole rookie contract here after KKs new deal. Again, not the value I would say is ideal in a first rounder. He's clearly better than Hurney in the second, but there's no evidence to suggest Funchess will make some great leap, though I hope he will, so as of right now I'd say he's a .500 batter in the second. That's may be average or not, don't know what the standards should be after 4 years, but just doesn't set my expectations high.

He's great with the cap and finding value in free agency (we can include UDFAs here, if you want), but he's just not as good a drafter as I think he gets credit for. He may be an average drafter overall, I just don't think the evidence suggests that is where his strengths lie.

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Icege Grand Master

Icege

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, WUnderhill said:

So we're in agreement that he's not some late-round wizard?

And if we're talking about all rounds, I'd have to disagree with him being "money" in the first round. As I see it, the only first round draft pick he's made that doesn't currently have question marks is Star. KB issues have been well documented here recently. Shaq may be pretty good, but 53 tackles/season out of a first round LB is not really a great value production wise. I think he was only in on something like half of our defensive snaps last year. I know he will eventually replace TD, but is that worth missing the value for 2 years so far, who knows how many more, in a first round draft pick? Vernon just finished his rookie season, but he may be a back-up for his whole rookie contract here after KKs new deal. Again, not the value I would say is ideal in a first rounder. He's clearly better than Hurney in the second, but there's no evidence to suggest Funchess will make some great leap, though I hope he will, so as of right now I'd say he's a .500 batter in the second. That's may be average or not, don't know what the standards should be after 4 years, but just doesn't set my expectations high.

He's great with the cap and finding value in free agency (we can include UDFAs here, if you want), but he's just not as good a drafter as I think he gets credit for. He may be an average drafter overall, I just don't think the evidence suggests that is where his strengths lie.

Is he a wunderkid in the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th?

He's pretty damn good in the 5th, and he's more often than not traded his 4th, 6th, and 7th round picks (he is gutter trash in the 4th). We don't have anywhere near enough of a sample size of 6th + 7th round prospects to make that assessment.

Plus all of those UDFAs.

Are we looking to say whether or not he's great in the later rounds or if he's great at scouting talent that we can find later on? Because if it's the first, NOBODY is money in the later rounds and to try and holding Gettleman to that standard (even if people are irrationally saying that he is) is ridiculous at best, confirmation bias at worst. However, when we look at the players he's landed in those later stages (5th + UDFA especially) then he's done extremely well.

On top of that, most of DG's picks have been LATER in the draft. KB was #28. Shaq was #25. Butler was #31. Gettleman has essentially been drafting a round later in 3 of his 5 drafts.

Let's be real here: Most people here are picking some arbitrary superstar stat that they want 1st rounders to achieve. Look at what you posted in regards to Shaq. You  want tackles, but are you even seeing what he does for this defense? He can cover tight ends in the slot, he can rotate to safety, he can fill in gaps and bring down ballcarriers at LB. We would think that fans of a Panthers team with Mike Shula as the OC would know that stats might never lie, but they also never tell the full truth either.

He's super solid in the draft. Go find me a GM to compare him to and I think he'll measure up quite well.

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CatMan72 Enthusiast

CatMan72

Posted
Posted
23 hours ago, CoastalCat said:

You think? If I was trying to trade you, I'd go the Patriots route. Get you out there looking like a star to boost demand. Worked for Matt Cassel.

Yup, happens all the time - if he gets hurt working out it severely diminishes his trade value and could even cost the Panthers some sort of injury settlement. They can't control what he does on his own time, but they're not going to increase the chances of an injury by having him workout at the facility. 

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WUnderhill Grand Master

WUnderhill

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Icege said:

Is he a wunderkid in the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th?

He's pretty damn good in the 5th, and he's more often than not traded his 4th, 6th, and 7th round picks (he is gutter trash in the 4th). We don't have anywhere near enough of a sample size of 6th + 7th round prospects to make that assessment.

Plus all of those UDFAs.

Are we looking to say whether or not he's great in the later rounds or if he's great at scouting talent that we can find later on? Because if it's the first, NOBODY is money in the later rounds and to try and holding Gettleman to that standard (even if people are irrationally saying that he is) is ridiculous at best, confirmation bias at worst. However, when we look at the players he's landed in those later stages (5th + UDFA especially) then he's done extremely well.

On top of that, most of DG's picks have been LATER in the draft. KB was #28. Shaq was #25. Butler was #31. Gettleman has essentially been drafting a round later in 3 of his 5 drafts.

Let's be real here: Most people here are picking some arbitrary superstar stat that they want 1st rounders to achieve. Look at what you posted in regards to Shaq. You  want tackles, but are you even seeing what he does for this defense? He can cover tight ends in the slot, he can rotate to safety, he can fill in gaps and bring down ballcarriers at LB. We would think that fans of a Panthers team with Mike Shula as the OC would know that stats might never lie, but they also never tell the full truth either.

He's super solid in the draft. Go find me a GM to compare him to and I think he'll measure up quite well.

I don't think that having an expectation that a healthy first round pick should be playing more than 50% of defensive snaps his second season is an arbitrary superstar stat. I'd say it's setting the bar kind of low, actually.

And I don't know where I've ever held Gettleman to whatever standard you're suggesting. My original post was basically a long way of saying "I took these comments about Gettleman at face-value, the release of Boston has caused me to sit back and look at it and I've realized they're untrue." It's been taken down a rabbit hole, which is fine, I get you were posting your Gettleman draft thoughts you had been ruminating on.

Point is, I think we can agree that we may have different expectations out of our GM and out of draft picks without putting words in each others mouths and blowing things out of proportion. I think it just boils down to I'm not a fan of his drafting so far, and you are. That's OK with me.

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WarHeel Mentor

WarHeel

Posted
Posted

I see Marcus Ball holding up a fist. Doesn't show anyone kneeling or infer that they did so as you suggested. And Tre was up front about respecting everyone from police, military, etc. Not sure what you're seeing in this...


Sent from my iPhone using CarolinaHuddle
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Icege Grand Master

Icege

Posted
Posted
51 minutes ago, WUnderhill said:

I don't think that having an expectation that a healthy first round pick should be playing more than 50% of defensive snaps his second season is an arbitrary superstar stat. I'd say it's setting the bar kind of low, actually.

And I don't know where I've ever held Gettleman to whatever standard you're suggesting. My original post was basically a long way of saying "I took these comments about Gettleman at face-value, the release of Boston has caused me to sit back and look at it and I've realized they're untrue." It's been taken down a rabbit hole, which is fine, I get you were posting your Gettleman draft thoughts you had been ruminating on.

Point is, I think we can agree that we may have different expectations out of our GM and out of draft picks without putting words in each others mouths and blowing things out of proportion. I think it just boils down to I'm not a fan of his drafting so far, and you are. That's OK with me.

But given the context, is that Shaq's fault (ie: majority of our snaps were in nickel with Luke + TD)? The only players taken between Shaq and Funchess that I would have wanted were Byron Jones, Landon Collins (pls pls pls pls pls pls pls), or Mario Edwards Jr.

I'm ok with us disagreeing on how he's evaluated, but I just hope that other GMs are evaluating that same way. You know how folks can get.

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therealmjl Grand Master

therealmjl

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, zacka77ack said:

I just wanted to provide everyone with a .GIF of this play so that we can perpetuate the consequences of giving up in an easy to use form of media.I searched this thread for one and didn't see one.

3oz8xrKh72CojjT9MA.gif

 

Like what was he even doing

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NCBlu Proficient

NCBlu

Posted
Posted

He was nowhere near out of bounds. Bradberry went for the strip fumble and if Boston did think he was going out of bounds you can still wrap him up just not throw him down or do some over the top stuff. When I saw that play live I was mad.

In the NFL you dont think someone is going out you make sure he does. 

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