Jeremy Cash

[Ship]

6 hours ago, thomas96 said:

It's unfortunate for our LB group the way that the league has gone the past several years. Base set for offenses is pretty much 3 or 4 wideouts right now, which leaves us in our nickel package the large majority of the time. Shaq, Luke and TD are all players who can and should be playing 100% of the snaps. Unfortunately right now Shaq is the odd man out. Of course it doesn't hurt to have backlogged talent on a team and we do play with 3 LBs on a fair amount of the snaps but it's still unfortunate. When TD retires inevitably it won't be as bad but it's possible what's happening to Shaq just happens to Cash at that point.

I agree that is a concern. I'm hoping that part of giving Shaq more playing time next year means we keep the base LB set in more often and let him loose on WRs. I guess it depends on the kind of slot receiver we face or if a team runs two TEs. I think Shaq should be getting more time as the nickel though. 

I know Cash isn't considered good at coverage for a S, but I wonder where he rates as an LB in coverage (with a couple of seasons learning in the NFL now). Maybe they both have stuff to offer on passing plays that we can put more trust in them the next couple of seasons.

[panthers55]

8 hours ago, stbugs said:

Barnidge and Snead have 3500 yards receiving the past two years, obviously not for us. Our coaches aren't perfect. You may reject the notion and I'll say we aren't saying they suck, but that they aren't the best. Brown actually showed up at the end of 2015 and was our best weapon in the NFC Championship and Super Bowl until he got hurt. 8-193-1TD against two solid secondaries. He then disappeared again this year.

Also, the GM isn't involved in playing time, he helps with the roster building and evaluating talent, hence he signed Snead to the practice squad. Barnidge was from Hurney and a FA before Gettleman. What we are saying is that the coaches are conservative in their evaluations. They aren't willing to take the risk. Byrd is someone I wanted to get more playing time, not necessarily at WR, but why not as a return man. Our return game isn't even mediocre and Byrd showed more flashes in a handful of returns than our guys did all year. Why the hell don't you let him return everything the last two games when you are out of the playoffs? Kind of like Williams finally getting playing time and looking decent.

I do think we haven't been the best at evaluating the bottom of the roster. We've got plenty of examples. Focault still on the 53? Guys we didn't want, which again, I don't put on Hurney or Gettleman. They get the guys with potential and if the coaches don't use the guys and don't speak highly of them, they continue to bring in other guys.

I know from all your posts that you are 100% supportive of the coaches, but saying they are good teachers does not mean that they are perfect evaluators. If you aren't on the first team, you aren't getting all the reps/experience in practice. This is current CBA and there is a lot less time for the bench players in practice. It's not the same as before.

There are always players that don't do well for one team and go elsewhere and succeed. Ginn is a perfect example. So does his success here mean Arizona and San Francisco can't evaluate talent or was he just a bad for for their system? 

What Brown did for a few games in 2015 have little to do with their future performance anymore than Cam being MVP had much to do with this year.

As for Gettleman having a role in who plays or how decisions are made, your conclusions are speculative unless you actually know what Rivera and Gettleman talk about while they are watching the team in practice. What their official roles and how they function in reality can be very different.

Am I 100% behind the coaches and think they never screw up or make mistakes? Of course not. But any and all coaches could be accused of not seeing talent until they are forced to play someone due to injury for example. Was Bill Belichick a bad talent evaluator because he didn't put in Tom Brady until Bledsoe got hurt? Is Garrett an idiot because he didn't play Prescott until he had to when Romo got hurt.

You actually gave the best argument for why you play first stringers over backups and why it is hard for any coach to evaluate who should play. With limited time to install gameplans every week and having to give most reps to the starters so they can learn everything you install, backups have limited exposure and have to make the most of the reps they get. Otherwise their time to shine is when they have to come in due to injury or when they get rotated in the lineup. Apparently Brown hasn't shined or done well when given limited opportunities. Otherwise he would be in there. Obviously Rivera isn't adverse to playing rookies  or backups in a game. I think we have the record for starting the most rookies in a playoff game. And Brown was pretty good last year in the playoffs. I expect all the coaches had high hopes for him this year. I wonder what he did or didn't do to go from a promising player to an after thought.  Because I am sure Rivera, Shula and Proehl hoped he would be a bigger part of the offense. You blame Rivera but I blame Byrd. If he didn't play he didn't do enough to earn it. Then again I was always taught you take responsibility for what happens and you don't blame everyone else if things don't work out.

 

[LinvilleGorge]

The biggest downside is that we're "wasting" Shaq's cheap rookie contract years with him in a reserve role. That's the downside of drafting 1st rounders at positions of strength. Ideally, those rookie high draft picks allow you to get great bang for your buck. 

[panthers55]

5 hours ago, top dawg said:

Ha! Ron and Dave aren't perfect at evaluating talent. Whay makes little sense is letying guys like Barnidge and Willie Snead---particularly when they fill a great need---shouldn't just slip through your fingers under any circumstances.

No one said they are perfect simply they aren't as clueless as you suggest. Tell me one coach who hasn't had players not do well and perform better elsewhere? Was Barnidge even here under Gettleman? No. And his first 2 years in Cleveland he had a total of 26 catches and less than 300 yards or 13 catches and 150 yards a season. We sure missed out on him. So finally in his 7th and 8th he played decently..... LOL. You don't hold onto a guy for 7 years of poor play waiting for one or two break out seasons. If you have to look that deep to find someone we missed on, that is stretching things pretty far.

[4Corners]

I bet he isn't on opening day roster. 

[top dawg]

4 hours ago, panthers55 said:

No one said they are perfect simply they aren't as clueless as you suggest. Tell me one coach who hasn't had players not do well and perform better elsewhere? Was Barnidge even here under Gettleman? No. And his first 2 years in Cleveland he had a total of 26 catches and less than 300 yards or 13 catches and 150 yards a season. We sure missed out on him. So finally in his 7th and 8th he played decently..... LOL. You don't hold onto a guy for 7 years of poor play waiting for one or two break out seasons. If you have to look that deep to find someone we missed on, that is stretching things pretty far.

Nobody said they are "clueless," but just sometimes loyal to a fault. 

This is about Ron mostly, but Gettleman is the one always puffing his chest out about being the talent guru, and yet he let talent at positions of need just walk out the door (and, yes, Gettleman allowed Barnidge to go AFTER he became GM, notwithstanding that Barnidge was a Panther before he technically took over).  

You speak of Gary Barnidge like it's his fault that it took eight years to bloom, but I can easily argue that it was the Panthers' fault. Oh, I know, he just became one of the NFL's most productive TEs after he left here by coincidence.

And I don't even want to start on Willie Snead which was three times as bad considering his age, super low cap hit, and our absolutely dire need for an effective route runner with great hands.

I'm not giving Ron a pass at all for sticking to the status quo too long. He needs to learn something from Belichick. As for Gettleman, you can't tout yourself as the omniscient talent guru if you're going to let talent---cheap talent walk out the door. Perhaps if he had a little more humility then I'd give him a pass, but due to his ego I'm just not inclined to give Getty any grace on this matter.

[GoobyPls]

5 hours ago, Ship said:

I agree that is a concern. I'm hoping that part of giving Shaq more playing time next year means we keep the base LB set in more often and let him loose on WRs. I guess it depends on the kind of slot receiver we face or if a team runs two TEs. I think Shaq should be getting more time as the nickel though. 

I know Cash isn't considered good at coverage for a S, but I wonder where he rates as an LB in coverage (with a couple of seasons learning in the NFL now). Maybe they both have stuff to offer on passing plays that we can put more trust in them the next couple of seasons.

The game in which we used 3 LB sets the most (NO) we got lit up. Its nearly impossible in today's NFL to use 3 LB at once especially in our division

[panthers55]

8 hours ago, top dawg said:

Nobody said they are "clueless," but just sometimes loyal to a fault. 

This is about Ron mostly, but Gettleman is the one always puffing his chest out about being the talent guru, and yet he let talent at positions of need just walk out the door (and, yes, Gettleman allowed Barnidge to go AFTER he became GM, notwithstanding that Barnidge was a Panther before he technically took over).  

You speak of Gary Barnidge like it's his fault that it took eight years to bloom, but I can easily argue that it was the Panthers' fault. Oh, I know, he just became one of the NFL's most productive TEs after he left here by coincidence.

And I don't even want to start on Willie Snead which was three times as bad considering his age, super low cap hit, and our absolutely dire need for an effective route runner with great hands.

I'm not giving Ron a pass at all for sticking to the status quo too long. He needs to learn something from Belichick. As for Gettleman, you can't tout yourself as the omniscient talent guru if you're going to let talent---cheap talent walk out the door. Perhaps if he had a little more humility then I'd give him a pass, but due to his ego I'm just not inclined to give Getty any grace on this matter.

Nice spinning the facts. Barnidge didn't have a good year as a tight end until 3 years after he left here not including the 4 here where he was not a factor. He sucked for 6 years for 2 teams not just the Panthers. And we replaced him with a tight end who was more productive not less.  You are really stretching to find something to complain about.

I had to google Snead to even find out he was on our practice squad for 2 months in Sept to November of 2014. Undrafted free agent so 32 teams missed on him 7 times. He went to Cleveland was cut, came to us and was cut and then the Giants cut him. Finally he goes to the Saints and does better than any undrafted free agent in NFL history under Brees. 

We at least signed him for 2 months. Seems everybody but the Saints missed out on him. Hard to blame just Rivera and Gettleman on that one.

[panthers55]

13 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

The biggest downside is that we're "wasting" Shaq's cheap rookie contract years with him in a reserve role. That's the downside of drafting 1st rounders at positions of strength. Ideally, those rookie high draft picks allow you to get great bang for your buck. 

He isn't in a reserve role. He starts but when we go to a nickel package in obvious passing situations we keep in Davis and Kuechly. So he doesn't play over 2 probowl linebackers who are better.

Wasted?  Hardly......

Plus with Kuechly missing games the last 2 years we need him as a second linebacker and Davis's eventual replacement.

[top dawg]

1 hour ago, panthers55 said:

Nice spinning the facts. Barnidge didn't have a good year as a tight end until 3 years after he left here not including the 4 here where he was not a factor. He sucked for 6 years for 2 teams not just the Panthers. And we replaced him with a tight end who was more productive not less.  You are really stretching to find something to complain about.

Not really. My initial opinion still stands. I wasn't the first person to bring up Barnidge, in this thread, or in the Huddle, though I still find it incredulous that guru Gettleman didn't keep the guy, and Rivera (and your OC)didn't legitimately use Barnidge in the normal flow of the offense. 

My contention was originally and mainly about Rivera and Byrd, and I stand by it. I have said it before, if you are ostensibly developing guys to play, let them play, especially when the guys in front of them are playing uninspired ball, in a season that's over. As opposed to just going through the motions of the status quo, see if another guy can provide you with a spark. That's not too much to ask (or maybe it is for Ron Rivera). If you're going to trumpet "competition" all throughout training camp, only to put a death grip on the status quo, then just shut up. There is a pattern here with Rivera that I don't like, and I'm a staunch Rivera guy. But If he is going to treat "evolution" like he has treated "competition," then I may jump off his bandwagon. 

By the way, If you want to get technical, I WAS THE FIRST to start a thread about how we let a very capable receiver in Willie Snead IV slip through our hands, and of course I was met with the usual Huddle derision when I bought it up a couple of seasons ago, before Snead proved to be more than a fluke. I don't remember if you were one of the parrots or not.

On even more off an off note...In general, I respect your opinions, even if I disagree with them on occasion (especially on Shula).  At least your positions are nuanced as opposed to being pure nut-hugger-esque one way or another. I appreciate that.

 

 

[top dawg]

The thread got a little off track, but I guess that all I am trying to say is that Rivera better show some more Cash this season, and he doesn't need to hold the Mayo either. In my estimation, Gettleman and he need to get together and decide that a possible---some would say likely---comp pick for Klein, considering the dynamics, is more valuable to us than Klein.

Let's not forget that Jared Norris is coming down the pipe also. 

 

[t96]

19 hours ago, top dawg said:

Damiere Byrd is the perfect example. That's why I made two distinctions, one about the 53 man roster, and one about the active roster.  

Yes, Byrd made the roster, but he didn't stay on it, he was cut! He was then put on the practice squad, only to be rostered late only for depth due to injury. Furthermore, while Ginn was leaving balls on the field---like he does so well---declining at returning, and Benjamin was seemingly somewhere in La-La Land half the time (and perhaps Brown, Funchess and Bersin to differing degrees), while the season was essentially over, Rivera couldn't find time to give Byrd a real opportunity. Gimme a break, man!

Putting an inferior player in over other young players who still need to develop isn't exactly a great coaching strategy... "Hey, season's over, let's just take out all of our young starters who can still develop and put in a bunch of practice squad level guys to see if they develop faster and out of nowhere!" Byrd's had all kinds of opportunities, and yes, real ones. People need to stop getting hyped up about every single UDFA guy or lower level guy with a bit of potential. Byrd is fast. That's honestly about it. He's not some kind of great returner either. He's barely had any return experience in his life compared to most of the great returners. Sure, he was pretty solid in the 2nd half of pre-season games. Doesn't really mean anything. I like Byrd and would love for him to blowup and improve to the point where he's like a Victor Cruz. But when he doesn't, you can't blame Rivera for not giving him a "real" opportunity. 

[t96]

1 hour ago, top dawg said:

By the way, If you want to get technical, I WAS THE FIRST to start a thread about how we let a very capable receiver in Willie Snead IV slip through our hands, and of course I was met with the usual Huddle derision when I bought it up a couple of seasons ago, before Snead proved to be more than a fluke. I don't remember if you were one of the parrots or not.

Do you think the New York Giants are a good team at evaluating WR talent?

[top dawg]

19 minutes ago, thomas96 said:

Putting an inferior player in over other young players who still need to develop isn't exactly a great coaching strategy... "Hey, season's over, let's just take out all of our young starters who can still develop and put in a bunch of practice squad level guys to see if they develop faster and out of nowhere!" Byrd's had all kinds of opportunities, and yes, real ones. People need to stop getting hyped up about every single UDFA guy or lower level guy with a bit of potential. Byrd is fast. That's honestly about it. He's not some kind of great returner either. He's barely had any return experience in his life compared to most of the great returners. Sure, he was pretty solid in the 2nd half of pre-season games. Doesn't really mean anything. I like Byrd and would love for him to blowup and improve to the point where he's like a Victor Cruz. But when he doesn't, you can't blame Rivera for not giving him a "real" opportunity. 

Honestly, you have praised Philly Brown to the detriment of Byrd. Even @Jeremy Igo had to call you on this last year, when we both pointed out that Byrd had arguably done better than Philly in the preseason of 2015. I think that you used the words "done nothing," or something to that effect. So, excuse me if I don't take your words "inferior player" as gospel, especially in light of all the opportunities that Philly was given.