Wesseling's take a little different from Sorenson's.

[CPantherKing]

The core of the team has 2 years. The front office missed big on that window, and their inability to stock a team to quickly transition the core players will set the Panthers back 3 to 5 years when they part ways with several of the core players in a 2 years.

The defense is secure at LB for the next 2 years. DT is a problem if Star and KK are not kept past their rookie contracts. DE is an obvious issue that has not been addressed for 3 off seasons. The CB position is the biggest weakness on defense with their lack of physical play in a zone system and weak run support on the edge. FS is an easy fix for the next 3 seasons if they move Coleman back to FS. SS is a big hole when putting 8 in the box, but the front 7 is good enough to cover that up at the moment.

The offense is just missing OT (as it has for the past 3 off seasons), and a 3rd down slot receiver with strong awareness and reliable hands.

Depth is an issue at every position on offense and defense outside of LB. This has been a glaring weakness of the front office, and the lack of draft picks plus the discounted rental free agents have led to this problem.

The K and P are good, but they take up too much of the cap to justify their level of play which is replaceable. Gano is not a top 3 kicker in the NFL.

So, there are several holes that have accumulated over the past 3 off seasons. The foundation that the team built going into 2013 has been cut down and the remainder of that foundation is not strong enough to support several of these under-performing young players.

[csx]

2 hours ago, Pimpdaddy said:

...hes right about the RB's...seen enough of CAP...getting tired of Fozz..

Fozzy has looked pretty good in his opportunities. I agree regarding CAP.  He needs to be replaced. 

[Wundrbread33]

Yes we need to find Stew's replacement, but not for a lazy reason like to "infuse some legitimate energy into our run game."

Stewart's ability and "energy" have nothing to do with the struggles. Hell we would be far worse off without him breaking multiple tackles each run.

 

Only reason to look at runningbacks is Stew's age. That is it.

Either way, we need to get away from this slow read option BS, particularly if we are telling Cam not to run as much. 

[Snake]

Spend some money next year and bring in a better OC and we will be back. Be cheap and dont change OC and we will suck next year once again.

[Jay Roosevelt]

Daryl Williams is clearly not the answer at anything. He has struggled as much as anyone this year. Maybe as a backup (Amini Silatolu was solid depth, but not starting-caliber) but not as a starter.

With Oher coming back, we have some flexibility as far as the tackle spots go since he can play right or left tackle. I think the best approach would be to target a tackle early in the draft and figure out in camp which side he's best suited for and put Oher at the other. I really like Wisconsin's Ryan Ramczyk as a potential left tackle prospect. He's got great feet and handles speed rushers a lot better than most college tackles coming into the NFL.

Trouble is, I have a feeling he's going to be a mid-late 1st round pick, meaning we either take him in the top-10 (unlikely) or trade back into the late 1st for him, which is possible considering we do have that extra 3rd rounder we could pair with our 2nd to move up.

[Mr. Scot]

4 hours ago, csx said:

Fozzy has looked pretty good in his opportunities. I agree regarding CAP.  He needs to be replaced. 

I'm not sure I can agree on CAP given that we never see him and I'm not sold on Rivera's roster decisions.

I'd lean negative on him but is he really worse than Tolbert was this year?

 

[Thorrez]

13 hours ago, panther4life said:

Sorenson, is essentially saying he has no faith in Gettleman to make the right moves to get us back to being a serious playoff contender again. Wessling simply named our top 3 offseason priorities but didn't add any optimism outside of that.

15-1 is a rare feat and can't really be expected to replicate 2 years in a row. However we did have a good chance at repeating as NFC South Champs, and Superbowl contenders this year.

A number of factors didn't go our way. Injuries is the only factor outside of the control of coaches/Gettleman.

The other factors start back at the offseason and point back to Gettleman. We would honestly be better off if he drafted positions of need or can make immediate contributions in the first round vs overall BPA.  There is no exact formula he can use that will predict him being able to find a Charles Tillman on the cheap, or Jared Allen for  a late round pick. He essentially has too much confidence in his bargain bin shopping philosophy. In the years(2 out of 4 right now) where all the cards fall into place and we find suitable vets, we have had success surrounding them with the existing core. 

Under our 2 winning seasons under Gettleman here is the core he inherited and who he added around them.

Offense 

QB-CAM -INHERITIED 

HB/FB- STEW,WILLIAMS,TOLBERT- INHERITED

WR-STEVE SMITH, LAFELL, INHERITED.

TE- OLSEN- INHERITED

O-LINE GROSS,WHARTON,KALIL,-INHERITED, right side of line was a weakness, combo of Hangartner, Bell,Scott, Chandler. Silatolu was also depth at LG.

ADDED BY GETTLEMAN

WR- TEDD GINN was the only offensive player he added in 2013. No upgrades elsewhere or even any depth.

Argument could be made he was up against the cap or that he was simply satisfied by what we had in place.

On defense here's the top players inherited.

DE-JOHNSON, HARDY, ADDISON, ALEXANDER

DT- DWAN EDWARDS

LB- LUKE, DAVIS, BEASON, CONNOR,SENN

CB-NORMAN, MUNNERLYN

S- GODFREY

So there were plenty of holes to fill here. Nailed the first 2 rounds getting Star and Short and Klein was a good pick in the 5th. 

He also found Mike Mitchell and Quinten Mikell in free agency to shore up both safety positions. Colin Cole was also solid depth at DT this year. Corner he didn't fair as well but still added Melvin White and Drayton Florence as well. 

2013  Key Players added.

DRAFT:STAR, SHORT, KLEIN

FREE AGENCY MITCHELL,MIKELL,COLE,BLACKBURN, WHITE AND FLORENCE

Fast forward to to 2014, all of the band aids left. He cut Smith, forced Gross into retiring a year early,should have never placed a 14 million dollar 1 year rental on Hardy, even if he played that year, we wouldn't have done much better due to all of the other holes left unaddressed. 

2015 he got back on track, found some free agents to fill the holes again. Coleman, Tillman, Harper, Oher, etc. 

2016 Happens and its a repeat of the 14 offseason. More holes are created than filled. 

2017? Who knows but the odds aren't in his favor to fix everything in 1 year again, however if he does he will get credit for it, but will give him 5 years here and still no back to back winning seasons!

All that being said, Gettleman is not solely to blame. Rivera has backpedaled in a major way from his Riverboat Ron status, but maybe its his lack of faith in his current personnel contributing to this? Maybe a mixture of both, but Rivera has never really shown any signs of consistent good decision making(especially time out management), even before Gettleman arrived.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Noone forced Gross into retirement:

http://mmqb.si.com/2014/07/29/jordan-gross-weight-retirement-panthers

Were does that "fact" come from anyway? 

[panther4life]

3 hours ago, Thorrez said:

Noone forced Gross into retirement:

http://mmqb.si.com/2014/07/29/jordan-gross-weight-retirement-panthers

Were does that "fact" come from anyway? 

Gross had a contract that expired after the  2014 season. In one of Gettlemans cap saving moves, he asked Gross to to take a paycut for the the 2013 season and had him sign a restructured deal that lowered his 2013 salary and made 2014 a voided year. 

Gross has no intentions of playing for another team, so since he couldn't be a Panther after his final year was voided he retired. 

The only benefit Gross had by agreeing to that new deal was he was able to keep his roster spot vs being cut out right 

 

[top dawg]

16 hours ago, panther4life said:

Sorenson, is essentially saying he has no faith in Gettleman to make the right moves to get us back to being a serious playoff contender again. Wessling simply named our top 3 offseason priorities but didn't add any optimism outside of that.

15-1 is a rare feat and can't really be expected to replicate 2 years in a row. However we did have a good chance at repeating as NFC South Champs, and Superbowl contenders this year.

A number of factors didn't go our way. Injuries is the only factor outside of the control of coaches/Gettleman.

The other factors start back at the offseason and point back to Gettleman. We would honestly be better off if he drafted positions of need or can make immediate contributions in the first round vs overall BPA.  There is no exact formula he can use that will predict him being able to find a Charles Tillman on the cheap, or Jared Allen for  a late round pick. He essentially has too much confidence in his bargain bin shopping philosophy. In the years(2 out of 4 right now) where all the cards fall into place and we find suitable vets, we have had success surrounding them with the existing core. 

Under our 2 winning seasons under Gettleman here is the core he inherited and who he added around them.

Offense 

QB-CAM -INHERITIED 

HB/FB- STEW,WILLIAMS,TOLBERT- INHERITED

WR-STEVE SMITH, LAFELL, INHERITED.

TE- OLSEN- INHERITED

O-LINE GROSS,WHARTON,KALIL,-INHERITED, right side of line was a weakness, combo of Hangartner, Bell,Scott, Chandler. Silatolu was also depth at LG.

ADDED BY GETTLEMAN

WR- TEDD GINN was the only offensive player he added in 2013. No upgrades elsewhere or even any depth.

Argument could be made he was up against the cap or that he was simply satisfied by what we had in place.

On defense here's the top players inherited.

DE-JOHNSON, HARDY, ADDISON, ALEXANDER

DT- DWAN EDWARDS

LB- LUKE, DAVIS, BEASON, CONNOR,SENN

CB-NORMAN, MUNNERLYN

S- GODFREY

So there were plenty of holes to fill here. Nailed the first 2 rounds getting Star and Short and Klein was a good pick in the 5th. 

He also found Mike Mitchell and Quinten Mikell in free agency to shore up both safety positions. Colin Cole was also solid depth at DT this year. Corner he didn't fair as well but still added Melvin White and Drayton Florence as well. 

2013  Key Players added.

DRAFT:STAR, SHORT, KLEIN

FREE AGENCY MITCHELL,MIKELL,COLE,BLACKBURN, WHITE AND FLORENCE

Fast forward to to 2014, all of the band aids left. He cut Smith, forced Gross into retiring a year early,should have never placed a 14 million dollar 1 year rental on Hardy, even if he played that year, we wouldn't have done much better due to all of the other holes left unaddressed. 

2015 he got back on track, found some free agents to fill the holes again. Coleman, Tillman, Harper, Oher, etc. 

2016 Happens and its a repeat of the 14 offseason. More holes are created than filled. 

2017? Who knows but the odds aren't in his favor to fix everything in 1 year again, however if he does he will get credit for it, but will give him 5 years here and still no back to back winning seasons!

All that being said, Gettleman is not solely to blame. Rivera has backpedaled in a major way from his Riverboat Ron status, but maybe its his lack of faith in his current personnel contributing to this? Maybe a mixture of both, but Rivera has never really shown any signs of consistent good decision making(especially time out management), even before Gettleman arrived.

I agree with some of the specific points you made, but your overall post doesn't really exude much optimism.  It sounds like you have little faith that things are going to actually turn around, but will be more of a repeatedly going through the motions of a wash cycle after routinely dirtying clothes. That's kind of the feeling I get, but you can correct me if I'm wrong. 

Honestly, you kind of sound like your take on Sorensen. The only thing is, I do see the positivity in Wesseling's paragraph:

 

"Despite becoming the first Super Bowl teams since 2003 to miss the playoffs the following season, the Broncos and Panthers organizations still boast the front office leadership, veteran coaching staffs and talented core of players to inspire faith in their potential for a return to 2015 heights with a few adjustments."

You (in general, of course) don't suggest boasting about anything, much less your FO, vet coaches, and "talented core of players," unless you're optimistic. You don't speak of  inspiring "faith" and "potential" and returning to the height of success with "few" adjustments if your outlook is negative.  Wesseling's words do evoke a more positive outlook.

I do understand your perspective. I have said for the last couple of weeks now that Gettleman and Rivera (and Cam) are at a crossroads. Their choices, individually and how they affect the unit, are going to either propel us back into consistent contention, or set us back (with pretty much a rollercoaster status being our ceiling). I have varying degrees of faith in all three, but I must say that Rivera's death-grip on the status quo in reference to his coaches is not necessarily getting off to a good start in this time for obvious change. But, unlike some, I just don't think that you can mistake yourself into two-time COTY. He has to be doing something right. However, he does have his weaknesses for sure, and being slow to change in reference to his offensive coordinators (small O and C to include them all) and active personnel on game days, may just be his undoing. Kind of within that same vein, Gettleman is going to have to prove that he can figure out the yearly puzzle that maps the road to long term,  consistent success, and not drive the team into unnecessary---albeit, hopefully temporary---ditches due to his ego and basic miserly attitude as it pertains to the dollar bill, and his arguably ill-advised love for hog mollies and linebackers at the expense of everything else. In my opinion, he needs to realize that each (yearly) team is a puzzle unto itself, and sometimes you have to deviate from your general philosophy to keep the train running.

 

 

[CRA]

19 hours ago, mc52beast said:

We can plug all the holes we want but if there isn't a change in offensive philosophy and we actually get someone who can TEACH Cam how to improve as a passer then it doesn't matter... basically what I'm saying is get rid of Shula and Dorsey.

Thinking you can and should be able to turn Newton into a poor man's Peyton Manning is a waste of time and a waste of Cam. 

You build your team to fit your franchise QB....not waste an investment like Cam by trying to make him something he never has been or will be.

a year ago Cam ran through the league with ease.  He isn't the problem.  Shula was able to scheme around a bad OL to protect him with max protection.  Then teams didn't allow us to aid a weak pass protection OL. 

all you have to do is fix the OL.  Protect Cam.  Then he goes beast mode.  You don't change the one guy that isn't the problem 

[the butch]

Want to get back to winning? Stop bending to the prima donnas of the NFL. I'll take fundamentals and deceptive speed. Athleticism and 50" verticals are a complete waste if the guy can't run an up-and-in for 5 yards or gives up on the play before the snap or otherwise commits a foolish PF during or after the play bc he's frustrated he can't get the ball. 

[panther4life]

4 hours ago, top dawg said:

I agree with some of the specific points you made, but your overall post doesn't really exude much optimism.  It sounds like you have little faith that things are going to actually turn around, but will be more of a repeatedly going through the motions of a wash cycle after routinely dirtying clothes. That's kind of the feeling I get, but you can correct me if I'm wrong. 

Honestly, you kind of sound like your take on Sorensen. The only thing is, I do see the positivity in Wesseling's paragraph:

 

"Despite becoming the first Super Bowl teams since 2003 to miss the playoffs the following season, the Broncos and Panthers organizations still boast the front office leadership, veteran coaching staffs and talented core of players to inspire faith in their potential for a return to 2015 heights with a few adjustments."

You (in general, of course) don't suggest boasting about anything, much less your FO, vet coaches, and "talented core of players," unless you're optimistic. You don't speak of  inspiring "faith" and "potential" and returning to the height of success with "few" adjustments if your outlook is negative.  Wesseling's words do evoke a more positive outlook.

I do understand your perspective. I have said for the last couple of weeks now that Gettleman and Rivera (and Cam) are at a crossroads. Their choices, individually and how they affect the unit, are going to either propel us back into consistent contention, or set us back (with pretty much a rollercoaster status being our ceiling). I have varying degrees of faith in all three, but I must say that Rivera's death-grip on the status quo in reference to his coaches is not necessarily getting off to a good start in this time for obvious change. But, unlike some, I just don't think that you can mistake yourself into two-time COTY. He has to be doing something right. However, he does have his weaknesses for sure, and being slow to change in reference to his offensive coordinators (small O and C to include them all) and active personnel on game days, may just be his undoing. Kind of within that same vein, Gettleman is going to have to prove that he can figure out the yearly puzzle that maps the road to long term,  consistent success, and not drive the team into unnecessary---albeit, hopefully temporary---ditches due to his ego and basic miserly attitude as it pertains to the dollar bill, and his arguably ill-advised love for hog mollies and linebackers at the expense of everything else. In my opinion, he needs to realize that each (yearly) team is a puzzle unto itself, and sometimes you have to deviate from your general philosophy to keep the train running.

 

 

Good post. I do like what I consider are as our current impossible/very hard to replace list of players below. 

Cam,Luke,Star,Short,Davis,Olsen,Kalil and Turner.

Still to early to call on players with only 2 seasons or less, however I still hate that our last 2 first rounders don't see more immediate snaps and make an impact like Star and Benjamin did in their rookie years. If any of them will be a sure fire impact I think it's Shaq whenever TD decides to hang it up. 

For me looking at our offense.

Qb- Fine. Love Cam and DA is a good backup. 

HB - Needs upgrade in talent or at a minimum a big boost in talent from the o-line. 

FB- don't need Tolbert, or even another FB really

RT- Needs new starter immediately and depth behind the new starter.

RG-Fine, could use better depth

C- Fine good starter and decent backup

LG- Fine, great starter, needs depth behind him

LT- Question mark at best. Can't count on Oher coming back or being any better than he has already. Would like to see an upgrade here but at least need new depth if nothing else.

WR- Can we trust any of them? Sure they've all had their "flashes" as Rivera would say, but no real consistency. Granted this is a team sport and if the other moving parts fail, this affects everyone. So what we have may work, if we address the offensive line and get a more dynamic backfield going. 

TE- Olsen is great 

Defense- 

DE- Only one that I have any faith in is Johnson and that's fading with his age. Lack of consistency from the rest of the bunch. Not a big fan of Ealy either. Need to infuse the talent here and even a first round pick wouldn't be enough. 

DT- Fine.Good talent and depth

LB- Fine. Good talent and depth 

CB- No idea yet. Hoping for the best in progression from the rookies. Good vet back here would help either way.

S- Another huge concern. Coleman fit in at well st FS last year but his entire supporting cast is gone. He doesent look good at SS right now. FS needs a new starter as well. 

So as you can see that leaves a lot of holes that need to be filled. Even though Gettleman has more cap room to work with I just don't think he'd overpay too much nor should he for positions of need or have enough cap to fill them all via F.A. To his credit he was able to do enough in 2013 and 2015 to make it work, however he did it with aging vets who disappear the next year and leave us with this inconsistent formula. 

At this point he's not on the hotseat so we have to hope he can make it right. Silly to wish for him to fail since we all suffer if he does. Maybe he can fill enough holes for 1 year again, but even if he does, is he prepared to replace the players who are currently aging and will retire one day soon? So I hope for the best and am not entirely writing Gettleman off, it's just a tough task moving forward for any GM at this point. 

 

 

 

[top dawg]

6 hours ago, panther4life said:

Good post. I do like what I consider are as our current impossible/very hard to replace list of players below. 

Cam,Luke,Star,Short,Davis,Olsen,Kalil and Turner.

Still to early to call on players with only 2 seasons or less, however I still hate that our last 2 first rounders don't see more immediate snaps and make an impact like Star and Benjamin did in their rookie years. If any of them will be a sure fire impact I think it's Shaq whenever TD decides to hang it up. 

For me looking at our offense.

Qb- Fine. Love Cam and DA is a good backup. 

HB - Needs upgrade in talent or at a minimum a big boost in talent from the o-line. 

FB- don't need Tolbert, or even another FB really

RT- Needs new starter immediately and depth behind the new starter.

RG-Fine, could use better depth

C- Fine good starter and decent backup

LG- Fine, great starter, needs depth behind him

LT- Question mark at best. Can't count on Oher coming back or being any better than he has already. Would like to see an upgrade here but at least need new depth if nothing else.

WR- Can we trust any of them? Sure they've all had their "flashes" as Rivera would say, but no real consistency. Granted this is a team sport and if the other moving parts fail, this affects everyone. So what we have may work, if we address the offensive line and get a more dynamic backfield going. 

TE- Olsen is great 

Defense- 

DE- Only one that I have any faith in is Johnson and that's fading with his age. Lack of consistency from the rest of the bunch. Not a big fan of Ealy either. Need to infuse the talent here and even a first round pick wouldn't be enough. 

DT- Fine.Good talent and depth

LB- Fine. Good talent and depth 

CB- No idea yet. Hoping for the best in progression from the rookies. Good vet back here would help either way.

S- Another huge concern. Coleman fit in at well st FS last year but his entire supporting cast is gone. He doesent look good at SS right now. FS needs a new starter as well. 

So as you can see that leaves a lot of holes that need to be filled. Even though Gettleman has more cap room to work with I just don't think he'd overpay too much nor should he for positions of need or have enough cap to fill them all via F.A. To his credit he was able to do enough in 2013 and 2015 to make it work, however he did it with aging vets who disappear the next year and leave us with this inconsistent formula. 

At this point he's not on the hotseat so we have to hope he can make it right. Silly to wish for him to fail since we all suffer if he does. Maybe he can fill enough holes for 1 year again, but even if he does, is he prepared to replace the players who are currently aging and will retire one day soon? So I hope for the best and am not entirely writing Gettleman off, it's just a tough task moving forward for any GM at this point. 

 

 

 

OK, a few thoughts on your thoughts:

I think that acquiring the other Kalil, notwithstanding his imperfections, would go a long way toward helping the line by providing decent depth at the very least. I believe Coach Matsko is a quality coach who should be able to help Kalil reach his (presumed starting) potential. I would guess that he'd either take the RT spot, or push Oher to it. Either way, that would push Remmers and/or Williams back to the bench where they belong. Everyone may not agree, but I believe that Remmers and Williams are decent depth players. You just don't want both of them out there at the same time. If we can get Kalil or another vet, and then acquire some talent in the draft, we should be able to field a decent to great line. I'm thinking it only takes two guys. 

As for DE,  I noticed that you didn't even give Addison his props, but that's OK. Even overlooked as a rotational guy, Addison has always exceeded expectations in my eyes. I think that between him, CJ, and a decidedly overrated Ealy (but who also provides good depth), our D-line can make some legit noise, just as they have done this season. Sure, they were shaky in the beginning, but it's not a coincidence that when the backfield improved, the line came on (plus they were getting understated pressure all along). All it will take for the D-line is one legit edge rusher either in FA and/or the draft, and we'll notice an immediate difference. Julius Peppers might be that guy (much like James Harrison has been for the Steelers).

As for safety, I am very concerned. It just takes one though. Cyprien will be looming out there in FA, but I'm thinking we should be able to land someone who is markedly better, if not more fundamentally disciplined, at some point in the draft to play at either position. Sure, I think Coleman is decidedly better at FS, but he really hasn't had a terrible year at SS, especially as the season progressed (again, no coincidence). Moreover, Dean Marlowe reportedly has some upside. I hope we get to see that realized, though obviously we can't count on it.

I'm not as concerned with the RBs, as I do believe we can at least fake it for another season if we have to between CAP, Fozzy and Jalen Simmons. To me, the bigger area of concern is TE. No one has ever really addressed to my liking what we would do in the event that Olsen gets hurt. We need a legit TE for that reason alone, not to mention a legit two-TE set which went the way of the dinosaur when Shockey faded off into the sunset. But this is doable. Hell, it should all be doable, at least to the point where we're back in legitimate postseason contention in 2017.

As for receiver, I am thinking just one or two day three additions (like a Zay Jones) would be a good complement to what we already have. If Rivera opens his mind, maybe at least one answer is on the PS. But much like I view RB, I believe we can get by another year if necessary.

So, all in all, I think that there are some temporary to longer term fixes in FA that would help us out greatly this season, and I also believe that the presumed third round comp pick looms large in this draft, and will go a long way toward filling a hole or trading for a slam dunk that will play for us for years to come.

Oh yeah, Gettleman is due to pull a gem from among the UDFAs as well. Although I don't take it for granted, I'm optimistic about the possibility.

 

 

[Mr. Scot]

8 hours ago, panther4life said:

Gross had a contract that expired after the  2014 season. In one of Gettlemans cap saving moves, he asked Gross to to take a paycut for the the 2013 season and had him sign a restructured deal that lowered his 2013 salary and made 2014 a voided year. 

Gross has no intentions of playing for another team, so since he couldn't be a Panther after his final year was voided he retired. 

The only benefit Gross had by agreeing to that new deal was he was able to keep his roster spot vs being cut out right 

 

Didn't read the article, did you?