Why The Hell Do We Keep Talking About "TE"?

[AU-panther]

50 minutes ago, FootballLivesMatter said:

Bc we like to ignore other positions in particarly OT. Keeps drafting LBs and DTs bc theyre the best player available. 

Because we should use most of our picks on players who might not even be active.

Most teams keep 9-10 OL on the roster and probably 8-9 active on game day.

OL doesn't really substitute like DL.  A lot of teams really don't have 1st and 2nd spring at each position.

On game day you might have your starting five, a swing tackle, backup center and backup guard.

We returned our starting 5 from last year. Oher, Norwell, Kalil, Turner, Remmers

Williams - a draft pick we moved up for that seemed to be progressing

Gradkowski - a free agent center

Lawson/Scott- guards- Scott was suspended early in the year

Hawkins - tackle

The way the salary cap works these days the majority of you players make less then $1m.  That means most of your roster is made up of young players on rookie deals or older players on cheap short term deals.

Gradkoski is probably middle of our roster based on salary.

That starting 5 plus Williams, Gradkowski, and Scott as first three off the bench doesn't seem that crazy to me.  I know everyone likes to talk about Remmers, mostly based off of the SB.  I would love to know how he graded for the entire season at RT last year.  I would guess not that bad compared to other players at his price point.

Its easy to say what you would have done different after the fact.  What exactly should have DG done different?  

 

 

[FootballLivesMatter]

7 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

Because we should use most of our picks on players who might not even be active.

Most teams keep 9-10 OL on the roster and probably 8-9 active on game day.

OL doesn't really substitute like DL.  A lot of teams really don't have 1st and 2nd spring at each position.

On game day you might have your starting five, a swing tackle, backup center and backup guard.

We returned our starting 5 from last year. Oher, Norwell, Kalil, Turner, Remmers

Williams - a draft pick we moved up for that seemed to be progressing

Gradkowski - a free agent center

Lawson/Scott- guards- Scott was suspended early in the year

Hawkins - tackle

The way the salary cap works these days the majority of you players make less then $1m.  That means most of your roster is made up of young players on rookie deals or older players on cheap short term deals.

Gradkoski is probably middle of our roster based on salary.

That starting 5 plus Williams, Gradkowski, and Scott as first three off the bench doesn't seem that crazy to me.  I know everyone likes to talk about Remmers, mostly based off of the SB.  I would love to know how he graded for the entire season at RT last year.  I would guess not that bad compared to other players at his price point.

Its easy to say what you would have done different after the fact.  What exactly should have DG done different?  

 

 

Remmers gave us plenty of reason to not bring him back after the SB. We still did. 

[AU-panther]

15 minutes ago, FootballLivesMatter said:

Remmers gave us plenty of reason to not bring him back after the SB. We still did. 

You mean the guy that was part of one of the best offensive lines in all football in 2015.

We brought back a lot of guys who played bad in the SB.

Who exactly would you have replaced him with?

[FootballLivesMatter]

17 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

You mean the guy that was part of one of the best offensive lines in all football in 2015.

We brought back a lot of guys who played bad in the SB.

Who exactly would you have replaced him with?

Yea the scrub who was playing with four very good linemen. The guy who got killed by a rookie Vic Beasley. The guy who got killed by Bruce Irvin. That guy got killed in the SB too. 

[panthers55]

22 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

You mean the guy that was part of one of the best offensive lines in all football in 2015.

We brought back a lot of guys who played bad in the SB.

Who exactly would you have replaced him with?Fi

first of a I wouldn't have drafted 3 rookie corners either keeping the tag on  Norman or bringing in a vet to start and drafting one guy early. I would have spent a high draft pick on a tackle. Left or right. Maybe left for the future and right for the now. I would have tried to sign a vet tackle. If I franchised Norman and brought in another vet corner I may have only gone with the draft pick at O line due to cap issues and knowing the offense wouldn't have to be great because the defense would be. I know I would have either used some of that 30 million to sign a vet or I would have been fine trading with someone who was O line heavy for maybe a 3rd rounder this year or next. After a I told anyone who would listen that the defense was going to struggle with no secondary. We had choices for sure and while I generally approve of Gettleman's moves, he was bad this offseason if he screws it again there is no excuse.

 

[AU-panther]

26 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

first of a I wouldn't have drafted 3 rookie corners either keeping the tag on  Norman or bringing in a vet to start and drafting one guy early. I would have spent a high draft pick on a tackle. Left or right. Maybe left for the future and right for the now. I would have tried to sign a vet tackle. If I franchised Norman and brought in another vet corner I may have only gone with the draft pick at O line due to cap issues and knowing the offense wouldn't have to be great because the defense would be. I know I would have either used some of that 30 million to sign a vet or I would have been fine trading with someone who was O line heavy for maybe a 3rd rounder this year or next. After a I told anyone who would listen that the defense was going to struggle with no secondary. We had choices for sure and while I generally approve of Gettleman's moves, he was bad this offseason if he screws it again there is no excuse.

I doubt any of us around here know the full story but based on what we do know I wasn't a fan of removing the tag either.   All of your other ideas are great in theory but in reality the guys you would have picked instead probably would have just as bad as what we have.

So instead of taking Butler in the 1st round you could have picked Germaine Ifede (OT one pick after us).  Did you see the write up about him in the other thread?  That would have helped.  Maybe Worleys draft pick?  Every team finds quality tackles in the third round right?  If that was true the league would be full of them.  What quality OT do you actually think you are going to get for a third?  What about Bradberrys draft spot? Could have had Norman and Worley.  Would our record have been that much different?  

Also if you keep Norman on the tag your cap is somewhere close to zero so your other upgrades are going to have to be cheaper

I'm not saying DG is perfect, there are definitely things he could do different.  But the average fan is unrealistic when it comes to how easy it is to find replacements in FA or the draft.  They don't have the luxury of hindsight or the ability to take the field.  I often hear "anyone would be better", they don't really have the ability to pick everyone, rather they have to pick one.  Here again people like to criticize but they don't really give specific options. 

 

[AU-panther]

54 minutes ago, FootballLivesMatter said:

Yea the scrub who was playing with four very good linemen. The guy who got killed by a rookie Vic Beasley. The guy who got killed by Bruce Irvin. That guy got killed in the SB too. 

That scrub probably graded out higher then most of the people suggested around here at the beginning of the season.  Who would you have replaced him with?

[panthers55]

8 hours ago, AU-panther said:

I doubt any of us around here know the full story but based on what we do know I wasn't a fan of removing the tag either.   All of your other ideas are great in theory but in reality the guys you would have picked instead probably would have just as bad as what we have.

So instead of taking Butler in the 1st round you could have picked Germaine Ifede (OT one pick after us).  Did you see the write up about him in the other thread?  That would have helped.  Maybe Worleys draft pick?  Every team finds quality tackles in the third round right?  If that was true the league would be full of them.  What quality OT do you actually think you are going to get for a third?  What about Bradberrys draft spot? Could have had Norman and Worley.  Would our record have been that much different?  

Also if you keep Norman on the tag your cap is somewhere close to zero so your other upgrades are going to have to be cheaper

I'm not saying DG is perfect, there are definitely things he could do different.  But the average fan is unrealistic when it comes to how easy it is to find replacements in FA or the draft.  They don't have the luxury of hindsight or the ability to take the field.  I often hear "anyone would be better", they don't really have the ability to pick everyone, rather they have to pick one.  Here again people like to criticize but they don't really give specific options. 

 

First of all I claim no great expertise as a draft guru or GM so I don't know I could do any better job. And as you say it is hard to just say this guy would be available or this guy would have signed here etcetera. 

With that being said,  I would have tried to sign Josh long-term and likely would have paid the 2 extra million he wanted and tried to manage the guaranteed money. I know it would have been less than he got from Washington as he wanted to be here. I know I would have kept working with him after rescinding  the tag as I now had leverage and he knew I was serious . That would have given me cap space. I like his Charles Johnson deal which gave us another 9 million.

I wouldn't have drafted Butler but instead went out in the first and.may have even traded up if there was someone I had to have at OT.  I think BPA at positions of need is the way to go. Again it is hard to know what might be available when or where.

I know I would have either picked up corners in FA or even a trade.  Again hard to say who and where exactly but again you asked me what I would have done and that is what I would have attempted. No one can give specifics because no one was in the spot to make the decisions or be in the know about what was going on with everyone. But that doesn't mean Gettleman gets a pass or shouldn't be called out for what were obvious mistakes at least in the short term.

[Ace_Aladdin]

13 hours ago, FootballLivesMatter said:

Wifey? Holy cow you so corny

someone is not getting satisfied in life ?  I told you Jelqing is your solution you might finally  be able to get on your favorite ride :p

 

Btw i do love corn on the cobb, corn bread, popcorn, high fructose syrupy ,corn flakes , corn feed chicken, corn kettles 

what's your fav food 

[FootballLivesMatter]

8 minutes ago, sanjay_rajput said:

someone is not getting satisfied in life ?  I told you Jelqing is your solution you might finally  be able to get on your favorite ride :p

 

Btw i do love corn on the cobb, corn bread, popcorn, high fructose syrupy ,corn flakes , corn feed chicken, corn kettles 

what's your fav food 

My favorite food is BBQ, grilled chicken breast, steak, turkey, but yea def BBQ.

[panthers55]

12 hours ago, AU-panther said:

You mean the guy that was part of one of the best offensive lines in all football in 2015.

We brought back a lot of guys who played bad in the SB.

Who exactly would you have replaced him with?

The difference for me would have bern that I would have done what Dallas did which was used at least 1 if not 2 picks in the first or second round on O line in the past 4 years so maybe guys like Remmers and even Williams might be depth and not starters.

[AU-panther]

2 hours ago, panthers55 said:

The difference for me would have bern that I would have done what Dallas did which was used at least 1 if not 2 picks in the first or second round on O line in the past 4 years so maybe guys like Remmers and even Williams might be depth and not starters.

Or you could have drafted Ifedi last year and had a worse tackle and no Butler.  That makes the team worse.

Or in 2015 you could have traded up (people talk about trading up all the time around here) and made sure you got Humphries ahead of Arizona.  That would have been great.

I agree with you in that DG could do some things different.  And yes, at some point we need to address the OL but being like Dallas isn't as easy as investing a few picks.  Chasing a OL pick could have easily made our team worse the past few years. People think just because you spend a draft pick at a certain position it is automatically upgrades.  In reality most draft picks are worse then what you already have.

I don't have access to PFF numbers but I would guess both Remmers and Oher graded out above average at their respective positions, finding upgrades to that isn't as easy as some think.

You can want to upgrade all you want, but there actually has to be better players out there available for you to upgrade.  The majority of the players in the draft and eligible for FA were worse then what we already had, but the average fan always thinks the other player is better.

Could we mortgage the future through draft picks and improve a particular positions on the team.  Of course, but at what point would it hurt the team overall.  Would Cleveland take the our next 2 first round picks for Thomas? maybe  Does that make our LT position better? of course  Would that make our team better over the next five years?  I doubt it

Look at how Dallas assembled the line. 

LT - Tyron Smith : they had the 9th pick in the draft and he was the first LT off of the board. I'm thinking he was more highly regarded then any OT in this draft.

LG - Collins : First round talent that was a udfa because of some odd off the field issues right before the draft.  I give Cowboys credit for seizing the opportunity.

C - Frederick - this fan base would go berserk if we spent a first round pick on a center

RG - Martin - 1st round pick on a guard- here again this fan base would go berserk

RT - Free - player that has struggled at times but they stuck with him

I'm not saying we shouldn't spend resources on the line.  If Oher doesn't come back we might have to overspend in FA.  We might have to pay good money for an average one.  I'm probably higher on Cam Robinson then a lot of people around here. I wish this was a better year for LTs in the draft since we will probably end up with a top 10 pick. It just amuses me when people make vague statements such as I would have drafted someone" or "signed anyone".  More times then not "someone " and "anyone" is no better then what you have.

 

 

 

 

 

[panthers55]

39 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

Or you could have drafted Ifedi last year and had a worse tackle and no Butler.  That makes the team worse.

Or in 2015 you could have traded up (people talk about trading up all the time around here) and made sure you got Humphries ahead of Arizona.  That would have been great.

I agree with you in that DG could do some things different.  And yes, at some point we need to address the OL but being like Dallas isn't as easy as investing a few picks.  Chasing a OL pick could have easily made our team worse the past few years. People think just because you spend a draft pick at a certain position it is automatically upgrades.  In reality most draft picks are worse then what you already have.

I don't have access to PFF numbers but I would guess both Remmers and Oher graded out above average at their respective positions, finding upgrades to that isn't as easy as some think.

You can want to upgrade all you want, but there actually has to be better players out there available for you to upgrade.  The majority of the players in the draft and eligible for FA were worse then what we already had, but the average fan always thinks the other player is better.

Could we mortgage the future through draft picks and improve a particular positions on the team.  Of course, but at what point would it hurt the team overall.  Would Cleveland take the our next 2 first round picks for Thomas? maybe  Does that make our LT position better? of course  Would that make our team better over the next five years?  I doubt it

Look at how Dallas assembled the line. 

LT - Tyron Smith : they had the 9th pick in the draft and he was the first LT off of the board. I'm thinking he was more highly regarded then any OT in this draft.

LG - Collins : First round talent that was a udfa because of some odd off the field issues right before the draft.  I give Cowboys credit for seizing the opportunity.

C - Frederick - this fan base would go berserk if we spent a first round pick on a center

RG - Martin - 1st round pick on a guard- here again this fan base would go berserk

RT - Free - player that has struggled at times but they stuck with him

I'm not saying we shouldn't spend resources on the line.  If Oher doesn't come back we might have to overspend in FA.  We might have to pay good money for an average one.  I'm probably higher on Cam Robinson then a lot of people around here. I wish this was a better year for LTs in the draft since we will probably end up with a top 10 pick. It just amuses me when people make vague statements such as I would have drafted someone" or "signed anyone".  More times then not "someone " and "anyone" is no better then what you have.

 

 

 

 

 

Again I said all along it is hard to shoulda  coulda woulda a year later with specifics but you asked the question. I told you my philosophy would have been to shore up our deficits rather than go BPA regardless of need unless we shored them up in free agency. Gettleman actually said he would do the same thing then didn't.

Without being there and having all the Intel that the Panthers did, how could anyone say they could do a better job? 

But I don't agree that you can only find good OTs in the top 10 or that they work out better than guys picked later. The point with Dallas wasn't that we have to have a top 10 pick like they did simply that they have invested picks in the line and under Gettleman the highest has been a 3rd rounder. If he says he loves big mollies then why don't we drafted them on offense?

Frankly I also don't believe that the 7th best tackle will be a worse deal than picking the third best tight end for example just because of their ranking.

This year we will get a top 15 pick maybe top 10. I want a tackle and I don't care who else is available. 

And why would we die over a first round center.? Kalil's was drafted middle of the second and was the first center off the board. That seemed to work out pretty good. 

I find it amusing you ask other people's opinion and when they offer it even with caveats, you rip it. Unless you really didn't want discussion.

[FootballLivesMatter]

1 hour ago, AU-panther said:

Or you could have drafted Ifedi last year and had a worse tackle and no Butler.  That makes the team worse.

Or in 2015 you could have traded up (people talk about trading up all the time around here) and made sure you got Humphries ahead of Arizona.  That would have been great.

I agree with you in that DG could do some things different.  And yes, at some point we need to address the OL but being like Dallas isn't as easy as investing a few picks.  Chasing a OL pick could have easily made our team worse the past few years. People think just because you spend a draft pick at a certain position it is automatically upgrades.  In reality most draft picks are worse then what you already have.

I don't have access to PFF numbers but I would guess both Remmers and Oher graded out above average at their respective positions, finding upgrades to that isn't as easy as some think.

You can want to upgrade all you want, but there actually has to be better players out there available for you to upgrade.  The majority of the players in the draft and eligible for FA were worse then what we already had, but the average fan always thinks the other player is better.

Could we mortgage the future through draft picks and improve a particular positions on the team.  Of course, but at what point would it hurt the team overall.  Would Cleveland take the our next 2 first round picks for Thomas? maybe  Does that make our LT position better? of course  Would that make our team better over the next five years?  I doubt it

Look at how Dallas assembled the line. 

LT - Tyron Smith : they had the 9th pick in the draft and he was the first LT off of the board. I'm thinking he was more highly regarded then any OT in this draft.

LG - Collins : First round talent that was a udfa because of some odd off the field issues right before the draft.  I give Cowboys credit for seizing the opportunity.

C - Frederick - this fan base would go berserk if we spent a first round pick on a center

RG - Martin - 1st round pick on a guard- here again this fan base would go berserk

RT - Free - player that has struggled at times but they stuck with him

I'm not saying we shouldn't spend resources on the line.  If Oher doesn't come back we might have to overspend in FA.  We might have to pay good money for an average one.  I'm probably higher on Cam Robinson then a lot of people around here. I wish this was a better year for LTs in the draft since we will probably end up with a top 10 pick. It just amuses me when people make vague statements such as I would have drafted someone" or "signed anyone".  More times then not "someone " and "anyone" is no better then what you have.

 

 

 

 

 

 Or exactly correct on Martin. Plenty of fans loved Martin coming out. I wanted him real bad; as a tackle tho.